A fully modern Linux distribution? (Desktops)
 

Is there such a thing as a "non-legacy" and fully modern Linux?

For example, the kernel now contains millions of lines of code and some of this is for old and ancient hardware. With all that legacy and complexity baked-in, doesn't that imply that; (a) it's slower than it needs to be, (b) it's more likely to exposed to vulnerabilities?

Second. Most (all?) distros use X11/Xorg which, again, is ancient and overkill for a desktop. Is there a contempary display engine that doesn't have 25 years of baggage?

Third. A modern toolset and documentation. My understanding is that net-tools has been superceded by iproute2, but still there are guides and search results that use ifconfig rather than ip. Similarly, a search for some problem could lead to a solution based on init.d rather than systemd.

Of course I understand that part of the whole ecosystem is choice, flexibility, and freedom - but my gosh, it can be confusing! I've been looking at LFS as a way to build this "modern Linux" but compliling from source seems to be duplicating effort that has already been done. I'll never be a C programmer so reviewing the source-code directly is probably best left to those that do code :-)

Arch Linux seems like an interesting development, but again it uses Xorg and seems to have some unecessary complexity (it's based on Debian no? but doesn't use APT?)

Now, I may have grabbed the wrong end of various sticks here - so please correct me if I'm wrong, but otherwise I'd welcome thoughts and discussion on this.

I am assuming that, by your definition, "modern" means "new and not subjected to the test of time."

Linux distros could do what Windows does, that is, move stuff around, change menus, and make superficial changes to convince users that they are getting something new, just as American auto companies used to add or remove chrome or add or remove fins.

But they don't.

Remember, "new" does not necessarily mean "better."

You stand corrected.

Oh, and welcome to LQ.

Furrfu.

Thank for the welcome :) I totally agree that new != better (Apple's new macbook keyboard) but there must be a point where old code has to be removed otherwise things get more and more complex. For example, I don't think it's too shocking to suggest that we no longer need (mainstream) drivers for dailywheel printers or legacy EGA cards... at *some* point (10 years, 15 years??) it's probably OK to remove some of that code [that most likely hasn't been reviewed for ages] in order to have a hope of understanding what it is we're dealing with. If we continue to carry around code that's very old there's a likelyhood that it will become "black box"; everyone assumes it's safe but nobody has looked at it in over a decade.

The wider point around relevant documentation remains too - it would be good if more people had an understanding of computers (in the broadest sense) and many newbies dip their toe in the Linux world (Ubuntu, Mint, etc) but crash into conflicting advice (net-tools/iproute2 was the one that got me for a bit) that *unecessarily* puts them off. There's a bunch of people out there who are interested in learning 'a bit more' but internet search results to their questions will lead them a merry dance.

If anyone's interested in collaborating/experimenting on building a distribution or has further pointers on where to start then let me know - I'm happy to work and contribute on this.

Some "old" code was removed from the 4.17 kernel.

To quote Mr. Torvalds,
The full message can be found at, http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/k...6.0/01332.html

The 4.18 series has also seen some "clean up."
:)

Thanks cwizardone, it's good to see that cleaning is on-going :)

While I'm not real clear on what exactly you mean by "a contempary display engine"; it's called Wayland and yes, it will replace X11 at some point.

The "net-tools" utilities are a lot older than the "iproute2" tools, what do you expect? I'm sure here you'll find more references to commands like ifconfig, etc. I'm not surprised. Some distro's may even still be using the old "net-tools" package. It would most likely depend on the distro you're talking about.

I'm sure it's probably a similar story for most other (maybe any other) legacy utility's/software.

so you did.
please inform yourself properly before making such broad statements, riddled with misconceptions.


PS: you should have a good look around various forums to see how many threads very much like this one already exist.
to me this is just some form of mild trolling under an intellectual cloak.
not saying you aren't allowed to do so, and i see you are heeding the advice given, but this is my opinion nevertheless.

One consideration that might matter to you a great deal is that ever since on-demand loadable modules became a reality in Linux it matters little what "baggage" is just lying about taking up a little hard drive space. It/They are only activated when needed. Additionally, this is quite different from Windows which uses a microkernel which has an extreme amount of complex interaction because of the parallelism required in a microkernel. Just FTR this is the very reason Stallman lost out to Linus in the first full what-came-to-be-called-Linux system because microkernels are extremely difficult to debug. Linus was simply first to the finish line and for good reason.

It is entirely common that people coming from Windows assume Linux is much like it and/or that Windows is somehow just more professional or polished at it because it is proprietary and owned by one company instead of distributed among many. Consider that Windows only has a large (VERY large) percentage of the Desktop market. On Enterprise at server level including The Cloud, embedded, phones, and SuperComputers Linux is King by the same degree that Windows is on the Desktop and this is because MS offers convenience ("Let us handle that for you") while Linux demands something from it's users albeit to varying degrees based on distribution differences.

For example, Slackware, which hosts this Forum, demands you the user take on the role of Administrator, know what you want and how to get it but of course that also means it ALLOWS you that level of control without jumping through a lot of hoops designed to protect you from yourself. Some other distros "bargain with the devil" trying to deliver a "Free Windows Ignorant Convenience" alternative but even underneath that they still function very differently at the kernel level. There is a reason the most serious computing is handled by Linux.

I'm a bit confused here. You expect the entire internet to be scrubbed of references to older software when the new one comes out? :scratch:

For up to date docs, consult the manuals that are installed on your local system.

No, because of its modular architecture. The hardware support is loaded at runtime on a need basis.

Yes. It's called Wayland (Wikipedia). Fedora uses it out of the box.

To sum up, if I may:

1. Hardware support is loaded as required, not built-in.
2. Wayland is coming, and in some distros it's already arrived.
3. Not everyone is using systemd: some people have no intention of using it.
4. Arch is nothing to do with Debian.

So yes, you've actually got the wrong ends of a whole bundle of sticks! As has been pointed out, Linux dominates computing from smart phones to supercomputers, so it must be doing something right! And before some-one mentions desktops and laptops, there's a difference between Joe Bloggs and his social networking and people who do something critical: you won't find Windows at NASA or the Gendarmerie National.

[QUOTE=enorbet;5873443]One consideration that might matter to you a great deal is that ever since on-demand loadable modules became a reality in Linux it matters little what "baggage" is just lying about taking up a little hard drive space. It/They are only activated when needed. Additionally, this is quite different from Windows which uses a microkernel which has an extreme amount of complex interaction because of the parallelism required in a microkernel. Just FTR this is the very reason Stallman lost out to Linus in the first full what-came-to-be-called-Linux system because microkernels are extremely difficult to debug. Linus was simply first to the finish line and for good reason.

Ah , thanks. I hadn’t really appreciated the dynamic module loading. So kernel starts and queries hardware then only loads what’s required? Does it do this every startup? Or is a config “remembered “ for faster subsequent boots?

Perhaps: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

What's wrong with "old" if it still works? Wheels on bikes, cars, trains etc... are old designs, engines are relatively old, guns are based on old designs, grills/BBQ's are really old designs, etc... Hey some of us are labeled old, should we be cleaned out?

I do agree that ideal coding should reduce in size with each release, but that is a different discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ca...and_the_Bazaar

and that's neither here nor there, so....

Actually it happens dynamically with the kernel generating udevents to notify udev of such hardware changes.
http://www.a-ticle.com/operating-sys...laboration/54/

Many distros also make use of an initial ram disk (initrd) to load kernel modules early in the boot process where necessary to support critical hardware.
https://linoxide.com/linux-how-to/initrd-image-linux/

Sorry to take so long. It took awhile to realize you were asking me.

Firstly the on-demand nature extends well beyond just kernel loading. It is also involved in the support of WM/DEs and on down to single applications and application features. At the kernel loading level whether or not what loads is remembered depends on the init system and also what any user/admin chooses. One example is choosing features as y/m/n or hard coded, on demand and not at all. This is further affected by whether one chooses to use an initrd or not and how one configures various load scripts most of which are in the /etc directory for system wide effect or in $HOME for the per user basis.