350€ instead of 250€ for a new notebook - obligation to buy WINDOWS 10 - 100 € total loss !
 

Hello,

I am facing the fact, that I had to buy a notebook with Windows 10 ALTHOUGH I DO NOT NEED THIS OPERATING SYSTEM AT ALL! No other possibility.

It cost me 100€ for nothing, because there is unfortunately no real way to buy a new computer pre-installed with FREEDOS or LINUX. With Freedos, you get a very limited choice of notebooks.

One month of searching experiments (phone calls, shops,...) was made, it was quite interesting, and it showed an interesting result. It confirms the fact that there not much to do. You've got to buy a Windows License (even if you do NOT need it, tell it, ask for NO WINDOWS!).

You have today the choice : Mac or PC (<- which is Windows by very aggressive marketing strategy of MS; maybe MS will lock one day your computer/notebook BIOS? It's on quite good way. Linus has right to be very much pissed off about it.). No computer producers are interested at all by selling it with Freedos or Linux, - nothing to earn!

I am really unlucky that the Linux community is not making itself some OPENSOURCE NOTEBOOKs. ASUS, DELL and LENOVO have almost nothing on Freedos. Simply you face the fact that you must buy Windows, by the end.

There is Pyra, Pandora,... who is a team of genius that made Opensource making fantastic hardware:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/

Maybe it is the fact that too much users are simply happy of having Windows, aren't completely capable to handle Linux to have it at 100% of the time. Too much users buy Windows, so, there will be windows always. You have the choice to make the world much Opensource. If you aren't yet joining the dev, you could try to help us, who are bringing Linux, Debian,... and fantastic bunch applications/softwares for you. Why not simply making as well some Opensource Notebooks/Computers?

You have the power to decide if you want that Microsoft remains on the market until the end of time. Maybe a society, one day, ruled completely by MS? ;)

Simply join a team that release some Opensource notebooks as well, with freedos, linux, ... just Opensource!

Hoping that the Linux movement will get larger.

Best regards
Pat

The fact is that the great majority of computer users have never heard of Linux. They may have heard of Apple, but that's it.

Here in the States at least, you can buy native Linux machines from Zareason, ThinkPenguin, and System76 (there may be others that I don't know of); they are Linux-only vendors. Most persons outside of the world of Linux have never heard of them either.

The upswelling of popular demand for which you wish just isn't there and, frankly, is unlikely to be there.

The OEM didn't pay 100 nothing for the OS. When I worked at one place, they'd get a license for next to nothing. I can't say what it is but it was next to nothing. That cost didn't raise the price of the product. Cost more to put the systems in boxes.

Of course, it raises the product price. What do you believe?

You could get better informed.

Do you need the bills to prove you the machine with freedos (months ago) and with the MS one?

You might be able to fight for a refund on the Windows Tax, but it requires documenting key steps carefully.

One set of strategies is documented at FSFE : https://wiki.fsfe.org/Activities/WindowsTaxRefund

It's easier if you plan it in advance.

It will take some time, but together as a group, breaking the monopoly that M$ has on the OEMs is essential in lowering costs and taking a quantum leap forward in quality and functionality. Both the public and private sector seem to be losing double digit productivity because of the albatross around their necks that is M$.

The best way is to buy hardware without M$. But to do that you may have to change vendors frequently. As you're seeing, what's available varies from month to month as M$ plays whack-a-mole with OEMs trying to free up the market.

The article below on microsoft pricing to OEM's from one of their executives:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22174/OE..._for_a_1000_PC

There are recent articles and (also I have anecdotal evidence from looking at my own website stats) that estimate that Linux accounts for around 1.5% of desktop users.

I'd also guess that as that article is 7 years old that prices have come down since then and would be even lower for mega-bulk OEM's like Dell, HP, etc.

Or the prices could have gone up. It's hard to know.

It's very hard to get that information in current or precise form because M$ treats that information as a trade secret. Indeed their ability extort OEMs depends on the dividing and conquering that is possible by keeping them in the dark. The proposed Trade in Services Agreement (TISA) threatens to make it even more difficult to get at that information, thus raising the cost of doing business for the OEMs even further.

I disagree, Dell do a range of laptops with Ubuntu with the cheapest coming in at €280 - http://www.dell.com/ie/p/inspiron-15...15-3552-laptop

You cannot buy an inspiron in EU. Who care about 280€?
The point is not that you can buy a DELL with Linux. Wow fantastic Linux and a notebook... no no no


The point is that you CANNOT buy a computer that is BIOS FREE-ACCES !!!

1) HP, ASUS, LENOVO, ... should as well sell notebooks with NOTHING or FREEDOS or LINUX!!
2) we do not want WINDOWS!
3) we should make our own NOTEBOOKS
4) LINUX users/community shall STOP buy WINDOWS and shall buy only LINUX or Freedos Notebooks. At less 1.5% less for M$!

Some manufactures do like the dell example but then your stuck with a crappy inspiron rather than a latitude. I end up buying "refurbished" latitudes so the license cost was already paid for by the original purchaser.

I believe that the Inspiron can be bought with an Intel Core i3, with 11.6", which is already pretty good.

Not talking about the processor, its the difference in quality.

If my Pi and laptop died tomorrow: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena ... :D

nice vid. You get wood... and build your own laptop.


EEEBOOK....
- Look mine, can you make it as much thin in wood? I probably got the last available ASUS R206S eeebook on earth ;)
Nice machine, nice hardware adapted to LINUX:
http://www.saturn.at/de/product/_asu...0-1435446.html

There may be countries with laws making Windows machines more expensive but, for the rest of the world at least, Windows machines are cheaper for a manufacturer to sell. The money they get from installed nagware and the fact they only need to test with and support one OS more than makes up for the ~$5 cost of Windows.

They can argue whatever they want.
It is easy to sell the price they want to.

In EU it is not easy to get a nice config for a good price. Living in China or Japan might be great to get nice notebooks.

This isn't a case of "what they want" it's just the facts of the industry. The "Windows Tax" is a myth that's been debunked a million times.

I don't want Windows. I wished that HP, ASUS, Lenovo, ... could think a bit more about selling machines with Freedos or why not DEBIAN (instead of Ubuntu <- who wants that?).

I don't want Windows either but when it's cheaper for the manufacturer to install it it's going to be the only choice. Only when a significant percentage of consumers want to have preinstalled Linux will it be worth it for manufacturers to do and I don't see that happening unless somebody comes up with a Linux that's as annoyingly crappy as Windows (Ubuntu's getting there, in my opinion).

"-But what is your computer?"
"-Linux"
"-Oh, really, but how can you work with that?"
"-Simple: much better, it's more efficient and much faster"


You simply can rely on Linux, since you've got the code. You don't like an app, you have other menu, or key shortcut preferences, you simply get the code and fork it.

Well, yes, until you need something only available on Windows.
I love Linux and use it at home excusivly but keep Windows dual-boot on my laptop in case I get around to applying for another job as I know I will need Adobe software for some of them.
I'm reposting old information my point being that it is not currently cheaper for manufacturers to sell Linux machines. I do suspect we'll see a lot of Chrome and Android machines in future but I may be in a minority in thinking that's as much of a problem for Linux users as Windows being dominant.

According to the information from Charles Songhurst, general manager of Corporate Strategy for Microsoft, the fee to corporate manufacturers is 5% of the cost of the computer so to have a $5.00 charge, you would need to be buying a $100 computer. Good luck with that.

A major factor in the availability (or non-availability) of non-windows system is the fact that microsoft has had a basic monopoly (meaning a dominant share of the market) for several decades. Most information in reliable sources will tell you that about 95% of home computer users have a system that was pre-installed.

Your problem might be where you live although I would agree it is not easy to find a pre-installed Linux. When I last purchased a Desktop 5+ years ago, I found one local computer shop which offered pre-installed windows, pre-installed Ubuntu (for about the same price?) or no OS for a lower price. Local shops might be your best bet, or not.

Why don't you set up a Windows VM under Linux for the Adobe software? It provides tighter integration of the data between Linux and Windows (drag-drop, copy-paste etc.).

I have read the $5 figure regarding Dell and others and I belive that over whatever the criminal organisation Microsoft reports -- this being part of their whole crime.
If you're buying "butique" for want of a better word then, of course, you'll get a proper OS if you wish but for generic maxchines Windows is far cheaper.

Because the license fee that the OEM I bought my laptop from didn't pay M$ for that.
I'm not about to buy a $150 copy of Windows just to fun it in a VM, though I did consider it at one point.

273 I think the upgrade is still free? Got my nephew a $50 copy of 7, upgraded then backed it up every which way from thursday... ;)

We could talk about conglomerate law until we're blue in the face, but I won't buy that #!it! Attachment 22478

The upgrade is free but the initial cost of a Windows licence is at least $150. I did look into buying a licence for Windows 7 a while back but it was just as Windows 8 was being introduced and the prices for 7 were ridiculous and Amazon Prime and Netflix (the main reasons I'd want a permanent VM) came to Linux and I ended up with a couple of Windows (8 with upgrade to 10) pre-installed laptops I can dual boot so I didn't bother.

Nowhere did I see a legal license for Windows for less than $100, though and usually they were over £150.
Ethically I'm not all that bothered about legality when it comes to Microsoft software but I really don't want to risk breaking the law.

I heard shops (or even OEMs) can't sell machines without an OS, is it true? Anyway, I've seen a lot at our local shops laptops with FreeDOS and Linux pre-installed. To clarify, not just usual shops but more like warehouses with a showroom :D

That would be absurd $o legally I don't see why not? :doh: :hattip:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11...ipped_without/
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microso...ating-systems/
http://www.geek.com/chips/buying-a-d...sible-1302452/

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=1
https://linux.slashdot.org/story/07/...naked-pc907293

Hahaha, you sent me the same pages I am reading now after "buy a laptop without OS" (let me DuckDuckGo that for you?).

Anyway, I can't find anything more or less serious on the topic. But "selling a piece of hardware without software is illegal" seems to me a real issue though.

Also this.

But, you know, the fact is: if there's no Windows (which is rare), there's always either Linux or FreeDOS.

Governments are very, very, very happy to help Microsoft raid companies also. They're completely fine with them abusing rights to look for "piracy".
Ernie Ball found out the hard way and gives a good argument for never, ever, allowing M$ into a business.

This Usenet thread, mentioned in the link, is interesting.

i have very recently bought a new mobo for my old desktop "minitower". no problem there, nobody forced me to buy an operating system!

but yes, the portable devices market is booming and most new copmputers ARE portable, and OS preinstalled.

it seems somebody here expects ALL these users to be computer savvy and install their own OS?
that's BS.

now, MS having a de-facto monopoly is a big problem, but that doesn't make it wrong to sell it or, god forbid, USE it.

and please forget about:
because it's 10 years old.

That's not true, certainly in the UK, but I imagine elsewhere as well.

For example, search Amazon for "computer no operating system" or "barebone pc". There are many.

This is irrelevant. Above there was a link from 2000. We simply discuss the fact that takes or took place.

I was talking about laptops, not PCs. On Amazon I couldn't find new laptops without an OS, only used.

Sorry, I didn't realise that "machines" meant "laptops".

You can get laptops without an operating system from Tuxedo Computers (www.tuxedocomputers.com).

Some other options are listed on this Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comm...ps_without_os/

Hehe, my German abilities are very limited though. OK, so let me finally clarify what I mean. There are no major companies (HP/Dell/Lenovo/ASUS etc.) that sell laptops without software directly. Or maybe not even major? Because, ok, it's not illegal for OEMs to sell notebooks without software, but is it for shops? That's what I doubt. I hope I am wrong. It also certainly depends on the country the machine is being sold.

Ok, I'll hand the question back to you. Can you provide any evidence of it being illegal under any jurisdiction for OEMS, shops (and that means both digital and physical shops) or anyone else to sell laptops without software? Any by that, I don't mean illegal in that it may break the conditions of a commercial contract.

And then consider the question, what would be the reasons for anyone passing such legislation?

If you want one, you can get a laptop without an operating system. It should be much easier to do so than it is, but hey ho.

OEMs are loathe to sell computers without operating systems, and Windows in particular, because they make added value from all the bloatware that they add to the Windows ecosystem, and also because they then receive support calls from people who have non-standard problems after having loaded their operating system of choice.

So, probably what is illegal: if a OEM has a contract with MS on some series of its laptops, then it's illegal for those OEMs to sell those laptops with another OS or without an OS at all on those series or if a shop wipes the hard drive with Windows.

Because I couldn't find any cases of what you said, if there are. Either way, I've heard people getting their money back from buying a machine with Windows pre-installed. But it's painful, I reckon. And another topic.

Nope. Such restrictive contract conditions have largely been deemed to be illegal in themselves.

Here's some light reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundli...rosoft_Windows

In essence, MS can't restrict computer manufacturers from not bundling Windows with their systems. They just mostly do it for other reasons.

The argument on people just wanting a computer to compute is moot to me! If while fixing my mom's computer she can't do the simplest things, I have to complain: YOU CAN READ WHOLE BOOKS BUT NOT A COMPUTER, WHAT BECAUSE THERE'S CLICKING INVOLVED?! :banghead: