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Old 02-02-2017, 02:04 PM   #76
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
This, to me, is simply the raw fallacy of the "trade treaty cum world government" idea. The notion that entry into a trade treaty should subsume your own national identity and with it your prerogatives that originate from sovereignty. That's complete and utter nonsense.
That is most likely the root cause of all this - and it seems the EU bureaucrats are trying to paint a sort of right-wing insurgence. Ok, there is a fine line between outright nationalism (going full Nazi) - and patriotism. The problem with the EU is that one's country is effectively subverted by Brussels. The UK in their view feels that Brussels is trying to dictate HOW it should operate in a sense, and so the UK said 'right, then we're out!' Hungary the same, they have openly criticised the 'quota' imposed on how many migrants they should accept - rightfully so - these are NOT states, they are still sovereign countries! Brussels is in no position to dictate - nor is Merkel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
London was the first to reject the EU. Across the Pond, Donald Trump deep-sixed a similar trade pact (after(!) China had already done so). And he's about to re-negotiate or to remove the US from another. To me, all of these things are very good moves that are much too long in coming. Because, "trade" is never facilitated by making your own country weaker. It is never facilitated by a Collective Decision™ that necessarily must consist of a race to the bottom, satisfying no one in the name of satisfying everyone. Every receiving country is entitled to tariffs, and every exporting country should as a matter of course expect to pay them ... and still profit. Although "a deal that truly benefits all concerned" is much, much harder to negotiate, it is the only deal worth doing.
And we will see how far this goes - pointing back to my original question and observation - unless Brussels wants the further deterioration of the EU and the overall DEATH of it - they NEED to re-evaluate how the EU operates. Perhaps a looser definition of the EU might be in order - though I have no idea what that entails obviously. I am by no means a political scientist, nor am I familiar with the EU constitution or manifesto, but perhaps the doctrine of the EU might be a bit too tight for some (i.e. Hungary, UK which voted to leave, next France, The Netherlands, etc).

Last edited by Jeebizz; 02-02-2017 at 02:05 PM.
 
Old 02-02-2017, 02:24 PM   #77
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Scotland could very well leave the UK from this result.

Another note about the UK - I do not think they will come out of this all in one piece. Remember the Scots WANT to stay in the EU - so I will not be surprised at another independence referendum. It will be likely that it will just be the UK as England Wales and Northern Ireland.
 
Old 02-02-2017, 04:47 PM   #78
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Meanwhile in Romania:

Quote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38850344

Romania: Fresh protests against corruption decree

Thousands of people have gathered in Bucharest and other Romanian cities for a second night of protests against a government decree that will free dozens of officials jailed for corruption.
[screencast]0gtDGoVmGaE[/screencast]
 
Old 02-02-2017, 05:35 PM   #79
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Red face Anti Trump/Milo protesters - You aren't helping your cause, just sayin.

Going back now to the uh..... kerfuffle? At UC Berkeley:


[screencast]5oH_UPNdSbY[/screencast]

Last edited by Jeebizz; 02-02-2017 at 05:40 PM.
 
Old 02-02-2017, 10:55 PM   #80
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[screencast]bLWKIHPx7S4[/screencast]
 
Old 02-03-2017, 11:16 AM   #81
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H.A Goodman explains why the democrats keep shooting themselves in the foot:

WHY DEMOCRATS LOSE TO TRUMP'S ALT RIGHT: Trump Adheres to GOP Values. Democrats Ignore Its Base



RT Crosstalk - Trump Revolution(with H.A Goodman)

Last edited by Jeebizz; 02-03-2017 at 11:18 AM.
 
Old 02-03-2017, 07:08 PM   #82
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Populism may get pretty interesting after Mad Dog Mattis trips somebodies trigger in Asia,

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa...KBN15G3FA?il=0

Might see a whole lot of populism in the near future.

Berkley? Who gives a hoot? Now Asia? That is where the action is gonna be.

Edit. Oh yeah. Iran is on notice. One cannot have too many war fronts.

Last edited by rokytnji; 02-03-2017 at 07:12 PM.
 
Old 02-03-2017, 09:39 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
Populism may get pretty interesting after Mad Dog Mattis trips somebodies trigger in Asia,

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa...KBN15G3FA?il=0

Might see a whole lot of populism in the near future.

Berkley? Who gives a hoot? Now Asia? That is where the action is gonna be.

Edit. Oh yeah. Iran is on notice. One cannot have too many war fronts.
Well at least we won't be going to war with Russia ......................*sigh*

I am going to create a separate thread about Berkeley because quite honestly that is bugging me to no end.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 02-03-2017 at 09:48 PM.
 
Old 02-04-2017, 04:36 PM   #84
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Sargon of Akkad - The EU - an interesting breakdown and rather humourous analysis.
 
Old 02-04-2017, 04:51 PM   #85
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Interesting picture about populism. Drink it up like a jalapeņo infused shot of vodka.
 
Old 02-04-2017, 05:05 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
Interesting picture about populism. Drink it up like a jalapeņo infused shot of vodka.
I have been going into tangents - so lets bring things back - perhaps I mentioned it at one point - but lets ask what exactly is the root cause of the sudden rise in the first place? In general - what are the contributing factors for the UK to leave the EU? Or Trump as our president? Racism? Well, even during better times, racism was still there last I checked , racism here is just the unwanted byproduct I feel. Something had to have lead to these events - I don't think anyone in the UK said - hey, lets all just fscking leave the EU just because we can. Same here, though here was a bit dry-cut - lets vote Trump - yea he's a buffoon , but Hillary? No thanks.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 02-04-2017 at 05:08 PM.
 
Old 02-05-2017, 01:17 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
I have been going into tangents - so lets bring things back - perhaps I mentioned it at one point - but lets ask what exactly is the root cause of the sudden rise in the first place? In general - what are the contributing factors for the UK to leave the EU? Or Trump as our president? Racism? Well, even during better times, racism was still there last I checked , racism here is just the unwanted byproduct I feel. Something had to have lead to these events - I don't think anyone in the UK said - hey, lets all just fscking leave the EU just because we can. Same here, though here was a bit dry-cut - lets vote Trump - yea he's a buffoon , but Hillary? No thanks.
Yes, this is exactly the point. Modern populism is reactionary, not in the usual yah-boo sense, but literally, as a reaction against what someone once called "the suave technocracy"*. That's why as many forms of it are left-wing as right-wing. It's against aggressive political correctness, international trade deals that impoverish the working classes, and the dictatorial rule of experts which effectively disenfranchises ordinary people.

People have been saying for a long time, "Why don't we just..." only to be told by the political establishment, "You just can't, and if you can't see that, you're racists and xenophobes." That's why the Spanish populist movement is called Podemos (We Can) and why Obama was able to come to power with the slogan "Yes, we can!". When he betrayed that slogan by showing himself to be just politics as usual with a black face, we got Trump. Trump said he loved the uneducated; Clinton called them "a basket of deplorables". That sums it up in a nutshell.

*It was Theodore Rozsak actually

Last edited by hazel; 02-05-2017 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Reference added
 
Old 02-05-2017, 11:14 AM   #88
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Yes, this is exactly the point. Modern populism is reactionary, not in the usual yah-boo sense, but literally, as a reaction against what someone once called "the suave technocracy". That's why as many forms of it are left-wing as right-wing. It's against aggressive political correctness, international trade deals that impoverish the working classes, and the dictatorial rule of experts which effectively disenfranchises ordinary people.
Ironically the left agrees with the right when it comes to certain trade deals (TPP).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
People have been saying for a long time, "Why don't we just..." only to be told by the political establishment, "You just can't, and if you can't see that, you're racists and xenophobes." That's why the Spanish populist movement is called Podemos (We Can) and why Obama was able to come to power with the slogan "Yes, we can!". When he betrayed that slogan by showing himself to be just politics as usual with a black face, we got Trump. Trump said he loved the uneducated; Clinton called them "a basket of deplorables". That sums it up in a nutshell.
That argument is what probably kept things in check to a certain point. Although I also do not think it is racist, or xenophobic to want to have some sense of border control, as well as national sovereignty, but on the other hand there is a danger here for the far right to hijack things, just where I think the left was hijacked by the far left - and then you had the sudden imposing of political correctness, and the violent reaction on the left (see the UC Berkeley thread).

My take is it is one giant pendulum, and it is obviously swinging to the right - how far right will be because of how far left things have gotten - so in that sense everything is reactionary (simplification I know) - cause-and-effect.

Now that the UK is the first to opt out of the EU - there is an obvious chance that more will follow. Whether or not that is a good or bad thing I do not know - I want to hear from LQers from those particular countries about that - and so I have my eye on The Netherlands next, France and then Germany. Interestingly enough, I would have thought that maybe Spain would also be in the mix, Hungary, and yes especially Greece - but maybe I am getting ahead of myself on that one.
 
Old 02-05-2017, 11:57 AM   #89
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You're still trying to fit 21st century politics into the 20th century mould of left versus right. It isn't like that any more. Yes, Trump is pretty far right but that's not why he won.

Suppose it had been Jeb Bush for the Republicans versus Bernie Sanders for the Democrats. It could easily have worked out that way if the Republican party machine had been stronger and the Democratic one weaker. Then Sanders would have been the People's candidate and Bush the tired old machine politician, and Sanders would probably have won, for the same reason that Trump did: because people are sick and tired of business as usual.

When you look at Europe, left-wing populist parties are almost as common as right-wing ones. Greece has one of each! And when you look at their actual policies, you see that they are more similar to each other than they are to the traditional parties of the left or right.

I think what we are seeing here is a global political realignment and not anything as simple as a swing to the right.
 
Old 02-05-2017, 12:28 PM   #90
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You're still trying to fit 21st century politics into the 20th century mould of left versus right.
Perhaps, again I am no political theorist/scientist whatever - and it is just what I think (and I could be wrong obviously) - although I do not think I am the only one with the left vs. right perspective. Old habits die hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Yes, Trump is pretty far right but that's not why he won.
I do not think he would be far right though. Sorry again to bring this up - but he is by no means 'politically correct' - and actually speaks rather simply - although some would see that as being far right. I have yet to see him repeal or act against something like gay marriage - and well he gave a good answer when asked during the campaign - "it is already resolved" - thats not to see some in his cabinet might try to get him to act - people keep talking about Bannon who say is far right - I don't know only because I never heard of him until recently. It is possible that Trump may have unknowingly surrounded himself with far right ideologues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Suppose it had been Jeb Bush for the Republicans versus Bernie Sanders for the Democrats. It could easily have worked out that way if the Republican party machine had been stronger and the Democratic one weaker. Then Sanders would have been the People's candidate and Bush the tired old machine politician, and Sanders would probably have won, for the same reason that Trump did: because people are sick and tired of business as usual.
Here in the US - the democrats are a neurotic mess - a shell of corporate goons pretty much. I know you probably weren't paying as much attention to this side of the pond (or maybe you have, I dunno, not trying to diminish you in any way or something) - but the dems have no strategy, they are weak - and the stink of their corruption may have actually been much more foul than the republicans - i.e. those insiders like Donna Brazile giving Clinton debate questions in advance, Debbie Wassermann Shultz outright manipulation/rigging - the amount of campaign money spent (way more than Trump) - and they still lost - and their refusal to acknowledge their situation - and so-called 'resistance' to Trump. Sorry I know I keep spamming videos but this I feel ties it all in:

Jimmy Dore - Democrats Voter Shaming

Or if nobody wants to watch - the gist of the video is that established democrats keep being divisive to their own party - and any democratic supporter that points out actual flaws and is correct is still being condescended to. That is also why Trump won - the sheer arrogance of Clinton - again hindsight is 20/20 - and her comment about how deplorable Trump supporters are - but again what Jimmy Dore points out is that Clinton voted for the Iraq War, is just as close if not closer to corporate goons, was responsible for the chaos in Libya - and if one points that out - their argument is - 'stop being so divisive.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
When you look at Europe, left-wing populist parties are almost as common as right-wing ones. Greece has one of each! And when you look at their actual policies, you see that they are more similar to each other than they are to the traditional parties of the left or right.
Again to my credit since I am on the other side of the pond, I obviously do not know but I do appreciate all the info you provided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I think what we are seeing here is a global political realignment and not anything as simple as a swing to the right.
That seems a correct assessment - I obviously saw it in a different perspective - swing from left to right - as I also stated I am oversimplifying things. So my question is where is the political alignment going to land? Perhaps it is too early for me to ask such a question, I don't know. If it is populism - what kind? If this is the 21st century then, probably it won't be the 'classical' populism leading either to a hard left Marxist ideology , or far right Nat. Soc. ideology? Again, I am probably way off on that analysis - if I am that is fine, this is just my take.

Again, I do really want to hear from more LQers now from the EU zone (not just the UK) I am very curious.
 
  


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