LinuxQuestions.org
Share your knowledge at the LQ Wiki.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions > Fedora
User Name
Password
Fedora This forum is for the discussion of the Fedora Project.

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 01-16-2004, 07:12 PM   #16
Bruce Hill
HCL Maintainer
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: McCalla, AL, USA
Distribution: Gentoo (all servers at work are openSUSE)
Posts: 6,937

Rep: Reputation: 128Reputation: 128

Quote:
Originally posted by Brother Michael
[QOUTE]As a side note, I never really expected Linux to challenge Microsoft either, I just always felt Microsoft was lacking for me.

Mike
Me, too. I'm trying to lose my Mirco$loth mentality, and learn the Linux (or should I say Unix) mentality. It became apparent yesterday when someone brought a troubled laptop with Win XP installed. I immediately tried to drop to cli to fix it. LOL! The entire time I worked on it I was thinking commands and solutions from Linux, not Windoze.

I'm using *nix because I like it! I'm not using Micro$loth's Windoze OS because I don't like it. Personal tastes.

I'm not installing Windoze on any more comps that I build - only a *nix distro. And only 2 of those at the moment. Because when I build a comp, I get the calls to support it.

And, WOW, *nix is not only very efficient, it's FUN!!!!
 
Old 01-16-2004, 07:19 PM   #17
hkctr
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 106

Rep: Reputation: 15
"Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: "I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," he said. "I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more."

Szulik gave an example of his 90-year-old father going to a local retailer in order to purchase a computer with Linux: "We know painfully well what happens. He will try to get it installed and either doesn't have a positive experience or puts a lot of pressure on your support systems," he said.

However, Szulik expects Linux to be ready in a couple of years after it has had time to mature. In the mean time, he is adamant that corporate users would be surprised by how much the operating system has to offer. "Consumers want USB drivers and digital camera support; but for the enterprise desktop, that is a little bit different -- that area is ripe," he said. "We think that the enterprise desktop market place is much more strategic and has buyers whose needs we can exceed."

I believe this is the quote you were referring to Chinaman. In a nutshell, it also explains why RH changed it's business model. I clipped it from ZDNet.

Indeed, China will be a very interesting battleground in the battle of OS's. India too, to a lesser extent. I believe that in both countries, MS will get a share, but nearly as big as what they have in the rest of the world. The playing field much more level due to lack of (or because of?) legacy issues. In fact, in the case of China, the field may be slanted very much against MS.

Last edited by hkctr; 01-16-2004 at 07:23 PM.
 
Old 01-16-2004, 07:34 PM   #18
Brother Michael
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Distribution: Debian
Posts: 284

Rep: Reputation: 30
Quote:
However, Szulik expects Linux to be ready in a couple of years after it has had time to mature. In the mean time, he is adamant that corporate users would be surprised by how much the operating system has to offer. "Consumers want USB drivers and digital camera support; but for the enterprise desktop, that is a little bit different -- that area is ripe," he said. "We think that the enterprise desktop market place is much more strategic and has buyers whose needs we can exceed."
I am going to disagree with him here. Fedora Core has thus far identified all of my USB hardware save one. Now my "wide" collection includes a Creative Nomad Mp3 player (which just acts like a storage device unless plugged into the base unit, then it becomes and MP3 player), my USB Lasermouse from Logitech, and My Palm Pilot.

Of those three, Linux has failed to identify/use my Palm Cradle, and so far the Linux community hasnt been able to figure it out either...

Mike
 
Old 01-17-2004, 06:16 PM   #19
flysideways
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 151

Rep: Reputation: 30
Funny, Comp USA has boxes of the enterprise RH in stock by me. Don't remember what it's called. It was something like $90.00 and right next to the SUSE. Red Hat is not going away, I think they just stepped in it when they put out boxed software for the average drool and click like myself. You do have to work to get a lot of your hardware working and some stuff will probably remain without drivers.
 
Old 01-17-2004, 07:07 PM   #20
Bruce Hill
HCL Maintainer
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: McCalla, AL, USA
Distribution: Gentoo (all servers at work are openSUSE)
Posts: 6,937

Rep: Reputation: 128Reputation: 128
Assuming that this article is correctly attributed to Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Red Hat; I would have to agree with this statement:
Quote:
"I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more."
I would agree with it purely from my years of experience building and repairing computers. He qualified his statement by saying, "the classic (meaning typical) consumer purchaser," not all consumers. If you read and understand the person to whom he refers, you must agree with him.

That being said, I still think he was selfish and inconsiderate of the Linux Community in stating that opinion from the position that he holds. You are right in that a lot of ignorant people equate RedHat with Linux. That's as ridiculous as equating Windoze with personal computer!

For the flipside of that coin, take a look at Richard Stallman's personal website . He states right up front, "This is the personal web site of Richard Stallman. The views expressed here are my personal views, not those of the Free Software Foundation or GNU Project. For their views and for information about them, see www.gnu.org."

For most of the people who's comps I've repaired, they couldn't get RedHat properly installed - much less one of the other distributions such as Debian, Gentoo, or Slackware. I don't say this lightly - I've let them try. The very point where most of them fail is in partitioning. They don't have a clue what a partition is, and they aren't normally the type of people who "read the directions." Most of them don't know what their current Windoze OS is capable of doing. They have programs installed that they aren't aware of; much less, able to run. And that's the earliest point of failure with the installation. The steps beyond partitioning, especially with the non-commercial distros, is totally beyond that classic consumer purchaser.

They are functionally illiterate. They have become this way with computers since the unleashing of Windoze 95, 98, ME, 2000, and now eXperience. And may I ask, how many of you even knew what the name XP meant? When Micro$loth abandoned running programs under DOS, and starting implementing GUI's, they took away the need to actually learn anything to operate a personal computer.

These guys come to LQ and want someone to "just tell me how to make my soundcard work!" They want 1-2-3 steps, and there you have it! It's working! Not just soundcards - but almost everything - or, whatever doesn't "work right out of the box." However, as any of us know who can actually compile from source, and have had to get the correct version of the compiler of some library for what we're trying to install, it ain't that easy.

Linux (the kernel) was not designed to compete with Micro$loth - it was designed to improve Minix. Linux (the kernel) has never been released to be a point-and-click executable file with all the instructions happening behind a GUI. Linux (the kernel) is interactive, and therefore, able to "leap tall buildings with a single bound." It is customizable for your particular architecture, and designed for the computer enthusiast who desires to maintain his own system, streamline it's functions, and get the most "bang for the buck" out of his hardware. Linux (the kernel) isn't designed for the classic consumer purchaser.

RedHat, and other commercial distributions, are designed to attract customers, because their main business philosophy is to make money. There is nothing wrong with that, but they are not PURE Linux (the generic term) distributions. They do things differently in order to make installation and use easier for the classic consumer purchaser. That is the goal behind RedHat 9.0 - make it where the classic consumer purchaser can stick the CD's in the drive and follow the point-and-click instructions and end up with a fully-functional computer (hardware and software).

So, if you understand that goal, Szulik is correct in the quote above, and what he means is that RedHat has finally admitted they can't make a distribution that's easy for the classic consumer purchaser to install without any prior knowledge or experience with his computer beyond a "grip on his mouse," and that RedHat has abandoned the pursuit of that market, and is now going after the "enterprise desktop market place." After all, RedHat is in business to make money, just like Micro$loth, and they'll do whatever necessary to do just that.

Linux (the different distros) are more suited for the guy who is willing to "get his hands dirty" in order to have better performance, and greater joy, from his personal computer. My use of Linux via Debian, and now Slackware, has brought pleasure back into "working with my computer."
 
Old 01-18-2004, 03:39 AM   #21
hkctr
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 106

Rep: Reputation: 15
Quote:
That being said, I still think he was selfish and inconsiderate of the Linux Community in stating that opinion from the position that he holds.
While Szulik may have snubbed a few noses in the linux community with his comments, he was true to his primary constituency, the shareholders and board of directors of his company. That is where his responsibilties lie. That is what he is paid to do in the position that he holds.

RH stock has tripled in price since he made those statements so clearly, others share his view enough to put their money on it. Coincidentally, during this same period of time Mandrake shares became worthless scraps of paper and SuSE decided they could not survive alone and sold all their stock to Novell. Novell will use SuSE as the linux engine and Ximian Gnome as the UI to create an enterprise distro of their own to go head to head with RH. Should be interesting.

Quote:
So, if you understand that goal, Szulik is correct in the quote above, and what he means is that RedHat has finally admitted they can't make a distribution that's easy for the classic consumer purchaser to install without any prior knowledge or experience with his computer beyond a "grip on his mouse," and that RedHat has abandoned the pursuit of that market, and is now going after the "enterprise desktop market place." After all, RedHat is in business to make money, just like Micro$loth, and they'll do whatever necessary to do just that.
Spot on Chinaman. But he did say that in a few years, linux distros, maybe even RH, will be fully "plug-and-play" for the classic computer purchaser you mentioned or his 90 yr old grandfather. They will need major help from the hardware and peripheral manufacturers with driver support to accomplish this though. Linus and his gang can't keep adding drivers for everything to the kernel. One thing you can be fairly certain of is that if and when manufacturers start adding linux drivers to their CD's, RH Enterprise and Fedora rpms and Debian debs will be included. Some other distros will may be included but anyone running a minor distro will have to do the ./configure, make, make install drill.

Please don't be so hard on ignorant PC users. They remind me of myself when I look under the hood of my car. I could be a god under the lid of a PC but when I get behind the wheel of my car, turn the key and nothing happens...HELP !!! I just wish fixing PC's was as profitable as fixing autos.
 
Old 01-18-2004, 04:20 AM   #22
Bruce Hill
HCL Maintainer
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: McCalla, AL, USA
Distribution: Gentoo (all servers at work are openSUSE)
Posts: 6,937

Rep: Reputation: 128Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally posted by hkctr
Please don't be so hard on ignorant PC users. They remind me of myself when I look under the hood of my car. I could be a god under the lid of a PC but when I get behind the wheel of my car, turn the key and nothing happens...HELP !!! I just wish fixing PC's was as profitable as fixing autos.
I didn't mean to be hard on ignorant PC users. However, ignorance is simply "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed." This can be overcome, and indeed, I am an example simply by my "overcoming." LQ is a wonderful place to overcome one's ignorance, which is 100% why I came here. On the other hand, for those who want someone else to do all the work, and not read for themselves, I wish Windoze on them, and the mindnumbness that Micro$loth has perpetuated. Just as your analogy above, if you desire, you can learn how to fix a car.

As to his other statements, and your remarks
Quote:
But he did say that in a few years, linux distros, maybe even RH, will be fully "plug-and-play" for the classic computer purchaser you mentioned or his 90 yr old grandfather. They will need major help from the hardware and peripheral manufacturers with driver support to accomplish this though. Linus and his gang can't keep adding drivers for everything to the kernel. One thing you can be fairly certain of is that if and when manufacturers start adding linux drivers to their CD's, RH Enterprise and Fedora rpms and Debian debs will be included. Some other distros will may be included but anyone running a minor distro will have to do the ./configure, make, make install drill.
I pray the day never arrives when the Linux kernel becomes bloated with drivers. There is no need to have any more drivers in the kernel, and maybe less. If it's not installed within a PC case, with the exception of monitor, mouse, and keyboard - it has no place in the kernel - IMO. We can add support for peripherals later. The kernel should be lean and mean.

Look at the problems we've experienced with the 2.6.0 kernel. And yet, it's supposed to be "stable" and has ALSA support included, better SMP support, and ide-scsi has been deprecated. Now look at the CD writer problems even "guru's" are experiencing.

I have saved some past kernels, and though I've downloaded 2.6.0 and 2.6.1, I've not tried them. I don't need the support they offer, nor the problems I've read that many have had with them.

I hope that in the future the trend turns towards less extra peripheral drivers in the kernel, though I'm neither a kernel developer, nor a guru. I am glad that I have some old kernels, and old .iso images of distros saved so that if things become "plug and play" as Sluzik predicts I've still got a very good place to start.
 
Old 01-18-2004, 05:05 AM   #23
hkctr
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 106

Rep: Reputation: 15
Save those old kernels and distros 'cuz the train is going to leave the station whether you are on it or not! I think I have taken us off topic so get get back on track, let me conclude by saying that I believe that Fedora's demise is not official but rather that its life has just begun and its future looks very bright. I believe it has the potential to become the benchmark that other desktop distros will compare themselves to.

Geez. I can't believe that I've wriiten this much about a distro that I rarely use. The real reason I use Fedora is that a long time ago I installed RH8.0 on my hardisk and used grub as my boot loader because unlike lilo (which is still a mystery to me), I could make it boot any partition and any OS I wanted. I have been too lazy to move grub to another partition so I have kept RH8, 9, FC in this partition just to boot my PC.
 
Old 01-18-2004, 09:38 AM   #24
Bruce Hill
HCL Maintainer
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: McCalla, AL, USA
Distribution: Gentoo (all servers at work are openSUSE)
Posts: 6,937

Rep: Reputation: 128Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally posted by hkctr
Geez. I can't believe that I've wriiten this much about a distro that I rarely use. The real reason I use Fedora is that a long time ago I installed RH8.0 on my hardisk and used grub as my boot loader because unlike lilo (which is still a mystery to me), I could make it boot any partition and any OS I wanted. I have been too lazy to move grub to another partition so I have kept RH8, 9, FC in this partition just to boot my PC.
Hey, LILO is simple for me, but I have the same problems with GRUB. Maybe we can collaborate.

 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
10.1 CE vs 10.1 official Fear58 Mandriva 8 11-16-2004 10:53 PM
10.1 CE to 10.1 Official? fsman Mandriva 1 11-01-2004 11:20 PM
CE vs Official noobtesting Mandriva 1 08-14-2004 09:43 PM
Java sun and limewire will be my demise Ogledbyoldmen Linux - Software 29 03-06-2004 09:44 PM
Most Interesting Demise of Bill Gates? linuxbeak General 0 04-17-2003 09:26 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions > Fedora

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration