"Now you wouldn’t allow the MBR of your Win98 in the second disk to be touched." You were the one referring
to not having to effect the 98 mbr with a Grub floppy.

"Your Win98 is in hdb3 right? So boot up a Live CD, Ubuntu or Knoppix, invoke a Grub shell and set up Grub in hdb3


Code:
grub
root (hd1,2)
setup (hd1,2)Grub in there can only boot if the partition is active and you have a mechanism to to boot hdb before the first bootable disk but still able to keep the disk oder unchanged. This normally requires a working Grub which you haven't got. So the above effort is potentially fruitless."
Fedora did boot when first installed along with the Legacy Grub after hiding both the 98 and XP partitions.
The problem of "unhiding" the XP now inactive partition came when no Grub prompt was seen on the restartup of
the system to use the "unhide" commands to restore the XP primary on the first drive. 98 was also forced to be reinstalled to make that active again. Core 4's kernel is too large too load from a floppy. This was clear
when Grub4Dos asked if Fedora was to be loaded. That saw an "error #25: parsing error with number" or a close
approximate description appear.

"What make you think by

(1) Erase Win98 and reinstalling Win3.1
(2) Installing Fedora into a new 50Gb space
(3) Using XP to create a new 60gb partition for backing up files
(4) Disconnection the primary drive

are relevant and can solve your booting problem?"
Your link recommends NO mbr on a data primary partition. 3.1 does not load automatically due to no mbr being
installed on a dos partition. You have to type "WIN" at a dos prompt for the "win.exe" file to load the 7.5mb
OS upto a 3.1 desktop manually. 95 introduced the autoloader into Windows unless a custom edit of certain sys
files instructed 3.1 to load.

"In Post #32 you reported


Quote:
a pair of stage 1 and stage 2 files were finally found in "/mnt/hdb1/user/share/grub/i386-RedHat".


Can you return to that position, pop a floppy into the drive and make a bootable floppy with these two lines of commands?


Code:
dd if=/mnt/hdb1/user/share/grub/i386-RedHat/stage1 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1
dd if=/mnt/hdb1/user/share/grub/i386-RedHat/stage2 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 seek=1"
As explained earlier the stage files located were for preparing an installer on a floppy disk not a Grub. In your link the instruction to make a \boot\grub\ directory to copy the stage 1+2 onto the 98 primary was done with those instructions for installing a grub loader into the 98 mbr. The stage 1+2 from the Grub4Dos package are currently sitting in the new directory.

"What make you think by

(1) Erase Win98 and reinstalling Win3.1"
Fedora's Legacy Grub would load Core 4 where any MS startup disk would allow access to the Fat16 partition to
then load 3.1 manually from a dos prompt. Ubuntu's boot manager floppy loads either 98 or XP without issue by
simply selecting the partition on either drive while seeing Fedora as an "unknown" failing to load there.

It is now established that you disallow the MBR of both 1st and 2nd hard disks to be touched and only want to use the Grub floppy. That is OK as Grub can boot any system from a floppy.

You have too many misconceptions that will take time to correct.

One of them is that you don't need to hide any partition when booting a Linux. Hiding is only necessary when booting several MS systems in the "same" disk. To boot the first you don't need to hide the others because it will be booted to a "C". You need to hide the first MS system when booting the second MS system in the same disk, otherwise the BIOS will assign the second disk as the "D" drive and give "C" to the first MS partition.

The other misconception is since you have only one MS system in disk 1 and disk2 you have no necessity to make any of them "inactive". Linux does not needed to be make active to boot. Only MS system does. If you use the Grub' map statement to swap the disk oder before the second MS system is booted it will be the first disk status by the software. So you should have no need to touch the booting flag in your current setup once both XP in disk 1 and Win98 in disk are both active.

You have Live CDs. Either cfdisk or fdisk from any Linux can be used to enable or disable make a bootable partition at any time. This is to equivalent to MS term to make a partition "active" or "inactive".

Another misconception is that you read old instructions and methods and do not understand the instructions I gave you are modern. I have never asked you to put a kernel on a floppy yet but you complained
.

This can be a misconception of using Grub4dos. It never asks you to put a kernel into a floppy. It always boots configuration file "/boot/grub/menu.lst". You can boot up a Dos floppy with Grub.exe inide and type
will boot up your Fedora if it is the hdb1. I have already shown this instruction to you in Post #35. If the above line fails it is because your don't know the exact location of your Fedora. I have advised you to show the key information of your system in Post #39, but as usual you never follow the instruction and proceed to do your own thing. Although Grub4Dos is a Dos program it only passes the control to Grub. As such it can boot from a floppy to any partition in a PC, even in a Sata or at the end of a 300Gb hard disk, both of these features are not supported by MS Dos.

Another conception is your statement
The first 512 bytes of a hard disk is the MBR. A data-onlt primary partition in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th position got nothing to do with a MBR. My link is to tell people how to use the Windows MBR to boot up Grub implanted inside a data-only fat partition because being data-only its boot sector is empty and being "fat" it can be read/write by Linux and so Grub can be setup there.

This is perhaps the biggest misconception from you
This the the offical way of making a bootable Grub floppy published in the GNU/Grub web site and stated in the Chapter 3.1 of the Grub Manual. You can find the exact instructions printed in the textbook "Linux in a Nutshell" by Siever, Figgins and Weber" that many regard as one of the bibles in Liniux. As usual you proceed to do your own thing and have your own interpretation that that this not a Grub and refuse to follow the instructions.

I think this the end of the line for me because it is no good for me to reply if my advice is distrusted and ignored.

Being human I can be wrong too and so I cannot insist you to follow everything I advise. However If you have a booting problem and have no faith in the published technique in official Linux web site then it is beyond my ability to assist you any further, as my knowledge is based on the GNU/Linux published information.

Therefore as the last resort I will accept that if the requested key information of your system stated in Post #39, the content of "fdisk-l" and the confirmation that you have made a bootable Grub floppy do not appear in your next reply then it is your message that I should not be bothering your thread any more.

"3.1 Creating a GRUB boot floppy
To create a GRUB boot floppy, you need to take the files stage1 and stage2 from the image directory, and write them to the first and the second block of the floppy disk, respectively.

Caution: This procedure will destroy any data currently stored on the floppy.

On a UNIX-like operating system, that is done with the following commands:

# cd /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc
# dd if=stage1 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1
1+0 records in
1+0 records out
# dd if=stage2 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 seek=1
153+1 records in
153+1 records out
#

The device file name may be different. Consult the manual for your OS."
That looks a little different then the Post #4 instruction of:

I could have misinterpreted your information as you could have put the two system together in one disk but the above two items of information will enable us to solve the puzzle.

"Code:
find / -name stage1 Ubuntu will return with a subdirectory name , say it is /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc (adjust in accordance with you own circumstance) your change directory to this subdirectory by

Code:
cd /usr/lib/grub/i386-pcYou then pop a floppy into the drive and write the stage1 and stage2 onto the floppy by "dd" commands

Code:
dd if=stage1 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1
dd if=stage2 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 seek=1 This Grub floppy can boot any PC system manually."
As you can see there are some BIG differences in the instructions to creating a grub boot floppy with a lack
of 4 critical command lines. Since the cd-r/rw writer is second to the dvd-r/rw on the system, the following
will be tried accordingly when retrying the Knoppix Live for dvd(cd-r version).

"2 cd /user/lib/grub/i386-pc
2 dd if=stage 1 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1
1+0 records in
1+0 records out
2 dd if=stage 2 of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 seek=1
153+1 records in
153+1 records out"
The remaining question would be if "2" substitues for "#" in the command structure? You will also note that
there are 4 additional command lines here. This is one reason why the previous attempts were to fail. The new
lines here instruct the stage 1+2 to be installed to specific sectors on the boot floppy. Anytime you give an
instruction on a process make sure the complete information or link where you found instruction is provided.
In Post #47 you finally provided a link for review of this particular Linux manual.

ADDING FURTHER: The only way to get Fedora Core 4 to run on the initial installation was to use
the hide command for both XP and 98 partitions where Core 4 made it's initial run upto the user
and password prompt request. That was after the Legacy Grub had installed to the XP drive. That
is where the initial problem began when there was no way to unhide either XP 0r 98 since a Grub
prompt never reappeared afterward. Fixboot and Fixmbr commands failed at that time to restore
XP as well as the FDisk /mbr command for restoring 98. 98 was easily to reinstall since there
were only the basics on the second drive. An "install to repair" failed when the boot.ini file
would list the two choices of "Default=Windows XP" or "C:\Windows XP". If the selection wasn't
made for the later Windows would hang on bootup.

The second reinstall deleted the then current Windows directory without correcting the matter
with the two listings seen at bootup. Finally the Fixboot and Fixmbr commands worked used just
prior to the third reinstallation. All this was done after the WD drive utility restored a boot
sector with it's backup/restore tool. The next post will list whether the additional 4 lines of
instruction see results.

The red lines are response from the Linux terminal. They are NOT instructions. The # is the command prompt.

If only you have really followed my instructions you would have been able to see them appearing in the screen.

The first line means

input file = stage1 (sourced from the current directory)
output file = device floppy drive 0
Block size = 512 bytes (standard sector size)
count =1 is do only one record

Therefore Linux reports only one record read and one written out and so on

I realised that you might even have a difficulty to change directory and so in Post #47 I even supplied the two dd statements without you changing to directory where stage1 and stage2 are stored.

You have one hell of misconception about the kernel and boot loader. Grub is no bigger than the above which is about (153+1)*512 bytes or about 80K bytes. You been claiming Grub (with the kernel inside) couldn't be accommodated into the floppy and you had to find a way to put Grub into a CD.

Like I said before you are reading "Linux boot disk" based on very old information. You are not making a "Linux boot disk" but a "bootable Grub floppy". It has nothing but Grub inside and can be used to boot a Dos, Windows, BSD and Solaris in additional to Linux. This is a modern method.

"Linux boot disk" is no longer important because we have Linux "Live CD" that can do the same job 10 times better.

Your Post #48 seems to suggest that I didn't provide you with sufficient information and links until Post #47 to make the Grub floppy, even the full instructions were showed in Post #7. In fact the links I gave to you in the later Post #9 has a complete information on the same subject. The information in Post #47 is no different to Section C.1 and Q5 to Q8 from this link.

Even in your Post #48 you are still confused with the need to hide XP and Win98 to run Fedora Linux. The link in Post #9 shows

Fedora Core 2 in hda54
Fedora Core 3 in hda59
Fedora Core 4 in hda22 and
Fedora Core 5 in hdc33

all bootable without any reference to a Windows partition. In fact none of the 97 distros there need to have anything to do with the 3 Dos and 3 Windows when booted.

You should correct your misconceptions by trying them out in the PC.

http://www.be4mind.com/portal/?q=node/7 seems to suggest installing Grub into the hd1 mbr.

"Even in your Post #48 you are still confused with the need to hide XP and Win98 to run Fedora Linux."
That was initially done when following directions seen in a tutorial in order to load Core 4. Core 4 did load
after the entries for hiding both the XP single partition on drive #1 and 98 on drive #2 first primary were to be entered which then loaded Core 4 upto the user name/password prompt discussed earlier. Some other types
of commands like "kernel=/ [TAB]" and "root=(HDb, [TAB]" have been also tried as of late as well as seeing:

"GRUB loading stage 2
Booting 'Boot HDb (hard disk 2, mbr)
root (HD1)
Filesystem Type unknown, using whole disk
chainloader +1"
with the latest bootable Grub floppy. Now to get Grub in the mbr or make a bootable floppy with a Full Grub.

I don't know what stage are you in now.

As you didn't confirm any problem except wanting the Grub in the MBR (a change of mind now) I take it you have manage to boot up all your systems manually with a Grub floppy. Is this the case?

In Grub you automate the manual booting with a script (or batch file in Dos). The script file is always /boot/grub/menu.lst. So all you have to do is the edit Fedora's /boot/grub/menu.lst to put inside the instructions you know can boot up all the systems. As a title is needed in the Grub menu screen you need an extra "title" line in the /boot/grub/menu.lst to help you to identify each booting choice.

As previously you have indicated that you want neither the MBR of your 1st disk nor the 2nd disk to be touched, I am therefore at a loss as which MBR you can put Grub.

The big Grub floppy you have in mind can be made by updating Fedora's /boot/grub/menu.lst and type these two lines at a Grub prompt
If you want the Fedora Grub to take over the MBR of the (hd1) or (hd0) just alter (fd0) above with (hd1) or (hd0).

Putting Grub into the MBR of (hd1) or (hd0) is against your initial wish. I am just showing the syntax here. So do it only after you have satisfied yourself that is the way forward. You now probably have more confidence as you can boot any of your systems up by the Grub floppy, even if you are not aware of both XP and Win98 MBR can be restored with just a Dos floppy with fdisk.exe inside.

Fedora Grub will never be operational unless it is put into the MBR of the first bootable disk.

"The big Grub floppy you have in mind can be made by updating Fedora's /boot/grub/menu.lst and type these two lines at a Grub prompt

Code:
root (hd1,0)
setup (fd0)
If you want the Fedora Grub to take over the MBR of the (hd1) or (hd0) just alter (fd0) above with (hd1) or (hd0)." Installing the Fedora Anaconda's Legacy Grub is what caused the initial problems of hiding the first
XP drive where fdisk /mbr, Fixboot, and Fixmbr commands failed to restore the boot sector. At that time the
only way Core 4 would even load was to hide both XP and 98 partitions in order to make the Fedora active and
subsequently load Core 4. It was Western Digital's LifeGuard utility that finally restored the boot sector on
the XP master. It then took three attempts at reinstalling XP to get it to boot normal again. The install to
repair and second that deleted the Windows directory left two options at bootup. "Default=Windows" locked up
the system along with the "C:\Windows XP" option that had to be selected in a few seconds or the default will
lock everything up. An edit of the boot.ini file failed to correct that. Right before the third reinstall of
XP the Fixboot and Fixmbr finally worked where the third finally resolved that problem.

"Putting Grub into the MBR of (hd1) or (hd0) is against your initial wish. I am just showing the syntax here. So do it only after you have satisfied yourself that is the way forward. You now probably have more confidence as you can boot any of your systems up by the Grub floppy, even if you are not aware of both XP and Win98 MBR can be restored with just a Dos floppy with fdisk.exe inside."
Simply shows that you are still missing the point about installing anything into the XP drive's mbr not the 98SE mbr if needed. You are the one specifying the use of a bootable Grub floppy. So far the Grub boot disks
tried are unable to load the Fedora kernel. A FULL GRUB Loader would have to be installed to a floppy disk to
be able to load the Core 4 VMLinux kernel. That is also used on the Knoppix Live cd where creating a bootable
floppy was not possible due to not having the correct files for that. Memtest is there along with boot.cat in
the subffolders. But the Grub loader has to be installed to the 98 mbr to make a working boot floppy as seen
in Linux tutorials.

"Fedora Grub will never be operational unless it is put into the MBR of the first bootable disk."
With the XP drive disconnected the reinstall of the Legacy if no other loader would have to take it's place. The Legacy Grub would indefinitely hide the 98 partition as seen earlier when first loading Core 4.The fdisk
/mbr would then be used to restore the 98SE partition if successful. 98SE has to be reinstalled due to a reg error where 98 currently will not load. Plus having over 768mb of ram with the 2gb of memory installed won't allow a dos prompt to open as well as running other programs. There also won't be any sound available since
Linux detects the Audigy 4 Pro as an Audigy 2 model along with having no support for 98. Knoppix even failed
to initialize sound there due to the Audigy 4 and Audigy 4 Pro's 2K-XP only design. With no way to support 98
Fedora will probably end up as the single remaining OS on the second drive. XP can load old 8bit applications
using a utility called "Dosbox" ruling out 98 while leaving the first 2gb free for old dos apps. An alternate
bootable cd-r loader could resolve this quick if it could load Core 4 along with Windows since it would be a
large enough loader for the Fedora kernel. The Grub boot floppy was easily made with rawrite by following the
instructions at: http://cstein.kings.cam.ac.uk/~chris/bootgrub.html The creator of the Grub boot floppy image
can be read about at: http://cstein.kings.cam.ac.uk/~chris/index.html

The Anaconda installer can easily slam the Legacy Grub into the second drive's boot sector and booting with
an old 95 startup disk would allow even Windows 3.1 to run on the 2gb Fat16 primary without 98 even there. An
alternative was sought due to 98SE being able to use the usb dsl connection. Will Fedora be able to do same?
So far none of the Live distros have been able to connect as well as sinc time with any Linux server. You did
mention Core 5? http://fedora.redhat.com/ is only up to Core 4 at this time. If you have a link for Core 5 it
would be appreciated here since that might offer a more flexible loader to use with 98.
(Gee? I still haven't bought a hard drive selector yet from: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTk3 saikee.)

OK

I told you there is no need to hide your XP and Win98 when installing Fedora and running Fedora. You insist it does.

I asked to leave the sound problem later after fixing the booting problem first you prefer to bring up again.

I showed you that you can make a Grub floppy from Live CD or Fedora you prefered to make it from another site.

Now you got the Grub floppy but don't want to use it but want one with a kernel inside.

Sound like you want to to visit Mr. Fedora 4 living in 10th floor. His door bells recently broke and he couldn't answer the call to open the door for you.

You now prefer to have a ladder (kernel) yourself with which you can climb to Fedora's window for access.

The master key that is already cut (Grub floppy)for you and can open the front door of the building is not preferred.

You have no wish to knock on the front door attended by the Janitor (XP MBR).

Neither would you consider going via the back door (Win98 MBR).

You don't like to use building's external elevator (floppy made by grub-install) which can take you directly to Mr. Fedora's residence without disturbing the Janitor XP because you are of the opinion it does.

Climbing up the iternal stair (manually booting with Grub floppy) is out.

Even the bomb-proof method of using a helicoptor (Live CD) that can always land you at the roof of Mr. Fedora 4 and then just go downstair (change root) has no use to you.

You now wonder why people don't make a ladder (kernel) long enough to reach the 10th floor.

The answer is in the old days buildings were a lot lower and the method of carrying a ladder (kernel inside a floppy) visiting a Linux friend did work.

Therefore if you prefer sticking with the old visiting method you should choose your Linux friend wisely or someone doesn't live so high up in the building.

You now also wish to befriend Mr. Fedora 5 but he lives at a even higher level. You can catch him at here.

"I told you there is no need to hide your XP and Win98 when installing Fedora and running Fedora. You insist it does." On the first run with the Legacy Grub installed to the XP drive it DID require the hide command to
be used in order for Core 4 to start up. Have you tried using the Legacy Grub not Grub4Dos method? That is an
old issue now since the XP drive was finally corrected.

"Now you got the Grub floppy but don't want to use it but want one with a kernel inside." The Grub boot disk
just made shows seven partitions on the XP drive along with the option to load the mbr. But there is only one
partition on the XP master. It also lists several on the second drive while failing to even start 98 since it
lists it as an "unknown". Regardless of partition chosen Core 4 will not load without a loader. The floppy is
to get as far as the loader. One thing you missed mentioning was the need to have a grub loader installed to
make up the boot floppy with that. The Live cd is not able to make a boot floppy as a review of the entire cd
show only the basic files for running Knoppix are included for making a Knoppix pair of boot floppies in the
event that the cd is unbootable.

"Even the bomb-proof method of using a helicoptor (Live CD) that can always land you at the roof of Mr. Fedora 4 and then just go downstair (change root) has no use to you." The commands were tried while using a
Knoppix Live cd were errors seen as: "unrecognised commands" despite several efforts there.

"(manually booting with Grub floppy) is out." SINCE WHEN? The grub boot floppy fails to load the kernel all by it's little self. It needs a "BIG GRUB" loader to get the big Core 4 kernel running if you want to use the
analogy there where a big brother boosts a little brother up a ladder. Your instructions wouldn't work due to
not having any kernel loader that accurately detects and loads the Fedora kernel. Without a loader the boot
floppy only can load Windows due to it's own kernel and mbr. This is a good act for "Comedy Central" from all
indications for those that read this thread for sure.

You started this thread on 22 Dec 05.

I have tried to help you to solve your booting problem and couldn't get anywhere, after reaching Post #55. No improvement on your situation what so ever. The way it goes I can see spending another 100 posts would not get you near a solution either.

During the time I spent with this thread I wrote three threads abouting booting

26 Dec 05 A grub menu booting 100+ systems of Dos, Windows, Linux, BSD and Solaris

12 Jan 06 How to use Windows MBR to boot a Linux

17 Jan 06 Just booting tips

The last one was regasrded good enough to be put into the library in less than 24 hours by the moderator.

It is obvious to me that I can never get through to you with my information or I fail to present the assistance in the form that you can accept.

I shall leave this thread.

However the information of the above 3 thread is sufficient for any Linux user to solve the booting problem of one XP, One Win98 and One Fedora.

Whether the Grub floppy and the Live CD can do or can't do the things you want is in the public eye and so I would not bother to argue with you.

I wish good luck in getting the answer of your choice.

"However the information of the above 3 thread is sufficient for any Linux user to solve the booting problem of one XP, One Win98 and One Fedora."

Boot floppies don't work with Core 4! In fact when a button is pressed when XP loads on the second drive C4
seems to suddenly load up. 98 just went the way of the dinosaurs. Upon the next to reinstall 98 the obvious
conclusion came when the XP master was disconnected and what should have been 98SE seen as "C:" became "D:".
A new partition suddenly appeared pushing 98 back a drive letter. That along with the difficulties presented
between 98 and hardware saw fdisk prepare a new 54.6gb primary partition on the second drive. Core 4 now has
control of the remainder. Fedora wouldn't load into 98SE's mbr but it did with XP's. Now does anyone know a
good Linux set of sound and video drivers for Linux on an Audigy 4 Pro and ATI Radeon 9550 256mb video card?
That along with how to get FireFox connected with a big help here.

"The way it goes I can see spending another 100 posts would not get you near a solution either."

98 Second Edition just "BIT THE DUST". That's one effective solution. And the grub boot floppy won't load a
Legacy Grub while still being able to load XP. It only took one post to replace 98 with XP on the slave drive
where all you do is "PUSH A BUTTON" within a couple of seconds. At least XP has sound, video, and other apps.
Now to find a way to increase the time the Fedora splash screen is seen at boot up.

I've been trying to follow this thread but my mind starts whirling at some point.

I installed fedora 4 core to an external USB device. I did not use a bootloader option at the time of the install, according to something I read on a fedora forum.

In laymans terms, how can I boot my linux installation from a floppy? It only makes sense to use a floppy since I carry the usb device between here and my workplace.

I can use grub to do this? I've been reading info at the sourceforge grub4os site and I am not sure how to accomplish this.

Any clues? Step by step instructions?

Thanks,
Steve

To a layman a boot loader like Grub is no bigger than 150k bytes and so easily accommodated into a floppy.

To boot a Fedora is to load its kernel therefore only 2 items of information are needed in a "direct" booting

(1) The root partition reference of Fedora

(2) The names of the kernel and ram disk file "initrd".

Grub is a mini operating system that you can run and feed it with answers to the above one line at a time. The instructions are in fact the content of /boot/grub/menu.lst. Therefore booting up a Grub floppy and enter one line at a time as per /boot/grub/menu.lst is the simpplest way of boot up a Linux step by step.

Linux can be booted "indirectly" just like a Windows. In such a case the Item (2) information is not needed. The sole requirement is to ensure the Linux has the boot loader inside its root partition. In "indirect" booting Grub only boots the boot loader and not the system.

There is no PC system I know that cannot be booted by a Grub floppy and all the necessary booting tips are in here

Thanks Saikee...I'll peruse that all tonight and see how I fare.