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Old 09-22-2015, 07:11 PM   #1
fogpipe
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Issues with systemd in debian


First i installed debian testing and the os had trouble keeping my partitions straight. Lots of "start job running", "stop job running" etc and it appears that im not the only one who had the problem:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user.../msg01366.html
It appears that the future is naming partitons by UUID in fstab if fstab continues to exist at all.
This just seems silly if i can type "blkid /dev/xxx" at a prompt why is the init system not capable of doing that?

Also, in trying to configure bind9 to only do ipv4 lookups i modified the /etc/default/bind9 options as per the directions in the /etc/init.d/bind9 file and got no result.
Now with systemd if you want to modify the bind9 start switches you have to edit /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/bind9.service.
I think calling that convoluted, non-obvious and silly would be too kind. Unless of course there is a good reason for handling it that way

How commited is debian to keeping systemd? Except for this silly systemd crap i like it a lot.

EDIT: and as far as bind goes you cant just restart it after editing that file and actually have your edits applied:
Code:
:multi-user.target.wants]$/etc/init.d/bind9 start
[....] Starting bind9 (via systemctl): bind9.serviceWarning: Unit file of bind9.service changed on disk, 'systemctl daemon-reload' recommended.

Last edited by fogpipe; 09-22-2015 at 07:20 PM.
 
Old 09-23-2015, 06:37 AM   #2
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogpipe View Post
First i installed debian testing and the os had trouble keeping my partitions straight. Lots of "start job running", "stop job running" etc and it appears that im not the only one who had the problem:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user.../msg01366.html
It appears that the future is naming partitons by UUID in fstab if fstab continues to exist at all.
Naming partitions by UUID is fairly standard practice even since before systemd came along. On most *nix systems, hotplugging block devices can create all manner of chaos with device nodes.

Last edited by cynwulf; 09-24-2015 at 11:32 AM. Reason: removed off topic posting
 
Old 09-23-2015, 04:14 PM   #3
fogpipe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Naming partitions by UUID is fairly standard practice even since before systemd came along. On most *nix systems, hotplugging block devices can create all manner of chaos with device nodes.
Hmm. Funny that in almost 20 years of usiing linux, i have never had to use it before now. I guess thats just coincidence and has nothing at all to do with systemd

I found and interesting thread on the debian forums with some cute comment excerpts from the systemd source code, from mount.c:

Code:
  /* FIXME: we need to do something here */
 
Old 09-23-2015, 05:05 PM   #4
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogpipe View Post
Hmm. Funny that in almost 20 years of usiing linux, i have never had to use it before now. I guess thats just coincidence and has nothing at all to do with systemd
You may never have to use it. To be clear I did not say it was best practice or obligatory, but it is fairly standard and nothing to do with systemd. Debian has been doing that for quite a long time (probably since Debian Etch or before?). It's useful to some, less so to others.

Last edited by cynwulf; 09-24-2015 at 11:34 AM. Reason: removed offtopic posting
 
Old 09-23-2015, 08:12 PM   #5
fogpipe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
You may never have to use it. To be clear I did not say it was best practice or obligatory, but it is fairly standard and nothing to do with systemd. Debian has been doing that for quite a long time (probably since Debian Etch or before?). It's useful to some, less so to others.


I don't know whether comments like that actually automatically mean the code is crap.

OpenBSD's init.c contains the following:
Code:
/* ... and if that fails.. oh well */


(The problem with the forum you refer to is that there is an element there who are very bitter about the systemd adoption and are just looking for anything at all to justify their position. It's not worth taking seriously as it's far too political and agenda driven.)
Of course they are upset. They are upset for good solid technical reasons. I wasted a good few hours on the issues outlined above and i have only been using debian for a few days.

People get emotionally attached to their distrobutions, seeing your favorite distro replace something robust, simple and functional with something fragile, needlessly complex and glitchy, not to mention non-optional, would be infuriating.

If slackware went to systemd, i would be upset, but from what i have seen of it so far systemd isnt up to slackware technical standards.

Anyway, whats your dog in this fight, Mr. OpenBSD?
 
Old 09-23-2015, 08:25 PM   #6
astrogeek
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No defender of poettering-ware here... but...

I initially resisted UUID refs in fstab way back when I first tripped over changing device nodes. I used labels instead, for a while, but finally saw that UUIDs were the way to go.

Now when I set up a new Slackware install, my first-boot config list includes changing fstab and lilo.conf to use UUIDs exclusively. No effort at all and well worth the elimination of future confusions!

Poettering-ware has enough real downside to focus on without adding any red herrings like UUIDs.
 
Old 09-23-2015, 08:28 PM   #7
fogpipe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
No defender of poettering-ware here... but...

I initially resisted UUID refs in fstab way back when I first tripped over changing device nodes. I used labels instead, for a while, but finally saw that UUIDs were the way to go.

Now when I set up a new Slackware install, my first-boot config list includes changing fstab and lilo.conf to use UUIDs exclusively. No effort at all and well worth the elimination of future confusions!

Poettering-ware has enough real downside to focus on without adding any red herrings like UUIDs.
Not a red herring i think, others if you look on the debian list and forums others are having similar problems with mounting and finding partitions.
Once you sit through a few "start job running for device.sdxx" you might think differently.

Last edited by fogpipe; 09-23-2015 at 08:36 PM.
 
Old 09-23-2015, 08:42 PM   #8
astrogeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogpipe View Post
Not a red herring i think, others if you look on the debian list and forums are having similar problems with mounting and finding partitions.
Once you sit through a few "start job running for device.sdxx" you might think differently.
Well, I am not a Debian user nor a poettering-ware user, so my comments were aimed specifically at the use of UUIDs in fstab and lilo.conf, which is a very useful idea.

If Debian or poettering-ware make other use of them that causes difficlties, then my comment does not apply to those. But mounting by UUID which is really just an unambiguous and unchanging reference to /dev/sdxx supported by the kernel seems pretty straight forward.

Learning to quickly mentally map between the two is an essential skill in these days of removable devices on any distro.

Anyway, good luck!

Last edited by astrogeek; 09-23-2015 at 08:44 PM. Reason: tpos, typs, typos
 
Old 09-24-2015, 04:11 AM   #9
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fogpipe View Post
Not a red herring i think, others if you look on the debian list and forums others are having similar problems with mounting and finding partitions.
Once you sit through a few "start job running for device.sdxx" you might think differently.
The mounting problems are not because of UUIDs. Those have been around a long time. Although the sdx nomenclature is easier to use, I never had problems when using UUIDs. Your mounting problems are either due to systemd or to the current state of Testing, or possibly due to a combination of the two. Are Stable users having this trouble? If not, then Testing might be going through a rough patch.
 
Old 09-24-2015, 04:32 AM   #10
descendant_command
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FWIW I have had no trouble with disk mounts under systemd on a range of hardware and disk layouts.
I DID get a timeout with it trying to mount a non-existant swap partition that was listed in /etc/fstab that previously a sysvinit boot silently ignored.
 
Old 09-24-2015, 05:39 AM   #11
cynwulf
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.................

Last edited by cynwulf; 09-24-2015 at 11:35 AM. Reason: offtopic
 
Old 09-24-2015, 06:22 AM   #12
wpeckham
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UUID/Labels

The UUID thing grew out of the udev evolution. Getting rid of udev is really not an option. As with systemd, possible but not reasonable. I seem to remember using Ubuntu about the time it adopted udev, and having to reload the machine to clear up the problems. systemd had not yet been moved into public view, I am not sure it existed.

As many others, I used labels in my fstab and grub configs. I still do. With LVM2 it is really not needed. LVM and MD have other ways to recognize their devices, but I still use labels to keep things clear. The UUID does not tell you much, the label can tell you more. The UUID just identifies the device: which, to be fair, is all it is for.

A measure of the true sysadmin is patience. The professional SA WILL figure it out, and may ask questions of others (here, perhaps) but does not complain a lot. I have never met a professional SA that prefers to complain over figuring things out. [ NOT that any of us lack OPINIONS! ;-) ]
 
Old 09-24-2015, 10:29 AM   #13
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Indeed. Now let's cut out these meta questions and comparisons with other distro's or I'll close this thread as the percentage of %{specific_other_distro} users is suitably high enough for them to know such "discussions" have been banned from LQ anyway, thanks for trying anyway.
 
Old 09-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #14
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unSpawn View Post
Indeed. Now let's cut out these meta questions and comparisons with other distro's or I'll close this thread as the percentage of %{specific_other_distro} users is suitably high enough for them to know such "discussions" have been banned from LQ anyway, thanks for trying anyway.
Understood. Removed the offtopic comments.

UUIDs are actually useful if you want to stick a hard disk for e.g. a laptop or netbook without a CDROM drive into a desktop system, install the OS and the plug it back in into the laptop/netbook. Saves messing about with USB sticks - and especially useful if the desktop machine is a lot faster.

You can comment out/remove everything in fstab apart from the disk containing the installed system, plug it back in and it should just work.

UUIDs still can't really protect you from silly errors of course, like dd'ing to the wrong device node.

Last edited by cynwulf; 09-24-2015 at 11:43 AM.
 
Old 09-24-2015, 07:34 PM   #15
fogpipe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
The mounting problems are not because of UUIDs..

True. The mounting problems are because of the init system used. Having to use UUIDs is a symptom.

Last edited by fogpipe; 09-24-2015 at 08:13 PM.
 
  


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