Is Debian sloppy?
 

It seems to me that Debian is really overcomplicated in its installation. This afternoon, I installed Woody, with the idea of upgrading to Sarge or Sid later on. I've been using Slackware for the last year or so, so I'm pretty well versed as far as basic system setup goes. I've also messed with FreeBSD a bit, it's just not as well maintained as Linux. So, loving the ease of use of the package/ports system on FreeBSD, I thought I'd try the mother of all packaging systems - Debian.

I'm quite overwhelmed, though. After the initial install, I rebooted, and was presented with a menu with thousands of programs Woody wanted me to check out. Three hours later, I found myself just speeding through them.

I installed everything I thought I might need, then rebooted. X won't work at all - it says it's not even there. I chose X in the initial software menu. Can't say I quite understand what's going on here. Some other software is missing that I thought I had installed.

Has anybody else had these difficulties? Should I just install the initial packages, then upgrade?

I'm also not quite sure what to change in my sources.conf file in order to upgrade to Sarge or Sid. I can't seem to find a good howto anywhere either.

I appreciate any insights anybody might have.

The Verbose Installation Walkthrough guide is a pretty good one to follow!

You can change your sources.conf file to download sarge stuff by changing every instance of "stable" to "testing" (or if you like, "unstable"). Then do an apt-get dist-upgrade to upgrade to sarge

use knoppix or morphix
 

The easy way to install Debain is to use knoppix or morphix. Morphix is even more customisable and eay to install. Then do apt and upgrade what you want. But both these distros come with the latest stuff.

After fooling around with the net install of Debian the live file
CDs seem to be the way to go as a means of a "quick n` dirty" installion method. With such an easy install I usually browse the internet while the system is doing its thing with the upgrades and such.

if you have a high speed connection, it's easiest to use tasksel to install X , then install everything from online servers. You can apt-get a window manager like window maker or fluxbox . Then apt-get mozilla , so you can get online. then apt-get synaptic , which is a gui front-end to apt-get. Then you can add whatever you want later. This worked best for me because, if something stopped working, i knew exactly what caused it.

debian is made by IT professionals, for IT professionals. It seems hard to install/maintain/use for people like you and me because of this reason. IT professionals don't need a simple installation/maintenance system, they need a highly flexible/powerful system, other linux versions have so much non needed crud for the IT pros and all that crud that they don't use only slows linux down. Having said all that, debian is only complicated to learn, I see it as a very easy to use and install linux version for the parts that I have learned. In my opion it is quicker to do most things by debian if you know how to do it than it is by any other version. Also in my experience it is more stable than any other linux version. I use the command "apt-get" to get debian updates and new programs, it has never failed for me. But with others like RedHat, I've had all sorts of problems with updates and new programs.

So my point is, take the time to learn it and it will become easier and easier as time go's by. Also you are learning what the IT pro's that create and maintain debian know.

What is there in hte base install?
 

Thanks. But....
So there is an AUTOMATED install in Debian?
apt getting is OK if the base install has everything. For example does the automated base install connect me to the internet? Does it have networking going?
I have never tried it, but I will give a go if the above are done. If I have to setup my internet connection with broadband using a special driver for the ADSL modem, how do I do that in the base installation?
Can I download ONLY the base install of say SARGE and make my own bootable CD?
Start from there and install the driver for the ADSL modem, get the internet connection (how?- automated?) then get an updatted system to my liking
:) cooool

Thanks to BittaBrotha
 

Thanks for your link.
I recommend it to all of you wanting to install Debian.
See what good documentation can do for Linux :study:

Hear! Hear!
 

re: binkybuckle - I dunno, I'm an IT professional, and Deb gives me a headache everytime I install it ;).

The good news is that the (admittedly) smart people who make Debian realize this and are doing something about it - see this page. Also, a new Desktop User's Guide in the works for the Sarge (current testing / next stable release) timeframe. Finally, Sarge is getting a new installer - discussed a bit here, and many other places, that aims to make Debian installation something you can do successfully on the first try (or so :) ). Whatever you do, don't even think about using the Sarge installer yet! But keep your eyes peeled for a more, ahem, mature release.

re: softgun - Amen to that!

Ab.

I don't think it's "overcomplicated." Actually, I think its pretty easy when you look at a walk-through and understand the way it works, which isn't immediately obvious to everybody. I'm still getting a handle on configuring Debian, but I think the installer is nice. Just read about it.

--GT

Sorry about the way I worded that phrase Abject. What I meant was: In some debian books I have read, they make the point of the fact that debian is mostly made by people in the IT industry who need it and thus those sorts of people are basically developing debian for there own use, (I guess not all debian developers are making it for there own use though) they generally do not see the need to make it highly "user friendly", there main purpose in developing debian is to make a powerful and flexible linux operating system. Maybe my books are a bit out of date on this subject but on the current debian (3.0r1) it seems this may still be slightly true.

I hope I don't upset anyone with my next comments but it is just my opinion. Some other linux versions are made partially to make money, even though they cannot charge for the linux distro they maintain itself, they charge a large amount for other things like support etc. One example is RedHat (junior microsoft), the last time I checked they wanted people to pay about $800 for their 'server' edition of linux. I dont dislike Redhat or other companies like them but on comparasion debian is the best choice for me.

It is good to hear that they now are concentrating on making debian more user friendly,

I just hope it doesn't sacrifice the power and flexibility of debian.

identifying the hardware
 

Well, it is possible to go through with the Debian install and get a basic system going. The thing is will it recognise the hardware? Everyone doesn not have standard PCs these days and there are many IBM compatinbles with various configurations.
I have had trouble with RH Linux 7.2 not recognising a graphics card, Debian not recognising the graphics card and monitor in some PCs.
Knoppix on the other hand worked on all of these and I am sure would have installed well too. The only problem is that we inherit whatever is on the Knoppix CD including the Star Offiice Suite:mad:

But it is a hassle free way of ensuring your hardware works and then installing in a few steps.

Morphix has a base module and a light GUI which would probably be the best way forward. I have also seen but not used Damn Small Linux which is also a live distro based on Knoppix but is 50MB. You can then apt get your stuff?

Nothing is more frustrating than going through all the stuff of a Debian install and then you cannot get X to work :(

docGonzo200,

It seems that you fell into the same trap that I did when I first installed debian. That is, tasksel and dselect. I have one philosophy when dealing with these two. DON'T! First time I looked at dselect I almost cried. Just insall the very base system in the automated part, then say "no" to the questions "do you want to run tasksel/dselect?" There is a very powerful (but poorly documented) tool called apt-get that is the best thing since sliced bread. Once you have configured the sources.list file (this take a little mucking around but since you're an ex-slacker you shouldn't mind) it's as easy as "apt-get install <package name>". Apt-get will handle all dependency problems. So from the base system type "apt-get install wmaker" to install the windowmaker gui and it will get all the common Xfree86 packages for you. Also you can just type "apt-get upgrade" and it will go to the places listed in sources.list and get the newest versions of every package you have on your system (and any security upgrades aswell). The one major problem is that the automated install for apt doesn't work. It will give you a sources.list file that's wrong (at least it did for me) so you have to read the man/info pages about it and edit it yourself.

I just recently did a base install of Woody(3.0) and then upgraded that to Sid using a dialup connection. It took a whole day to get the stuff using apt-get but I'm typing this now using it!

First thing first, and that is to make sure your hardware is compatible with Debian. And yes, it will help you setup your DSL/Cable net connection as long as your nic card is supported.