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Old 01-14-2017, 02:57 AM   #1
patrick295767
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Installing Debian without systemd using debootstrap method?


Hello,

Who really wants Systemd? - Many.

Let's discuss about how installing Debian using debootstrap method without the Systemd.

A method to start is to include Sysvinit-core:
Code:
debootstrap   --include sysvinit-core --foreign     jessie system http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian
What are your methods to install Debian without systemd using debootstrap method?

Best regards,
Pat

--
Refs
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
 
Old 01-14-2017, 08:11 AM   #2
fatmac
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I use AntiX as it is systemd free, there is a 'core' version that is a basic install, but I usually use the 'base' version myself.

http://antix.mepis.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
 
Old 01-14-2017, 10:34 AM   #3
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick295767 View Post
Hello,

Who really wants Systemd? - Many.

Let's discuss about how installing Debian using debootstrap method without the Systemd.

A method to start is to include Sysvinit-core:
Code:
debootstrap   --include sysvinit-core --foreign     jessie system http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian
What are your methods to install Debian without systemd using debootstrap method?

Best regards,
Pat

--
Refs
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Don't.
Debootstrap needs a working d-i (using all defaults).

Instead, use "preseeding".

Either as a file (preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install --purge -y sysvinit-core")
... or a kernel/boot argument (d-i preseed/late_command string in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core).

Full documentation: https://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/apb.html

Last edited by jens; 01-14-2017 at 07:34 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2017, 10:54 AM   #4
273
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Erm, Devuan?
Debian is built upon systemd whether we like it or not -- messing with the install process to avoid Poetering's monster will only lead to failure in future.
Accept Mt Poeterring's trash or change distro, or things will only break.

Edit: I have used PulseAudio for years so I know that Poetering is nowhere near as good a programmer as he should be, never mind being anything like as good as he thinks he is.

Last edited by 273; 01-14-2017 at 10:56 AM.
 
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:11 PM   #5
patrick295767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Erm, Devuan?
Debian is built upon systemd whether we like it or not -- messing with the install process to avoid Poetering's monster will only lead to failure in future.
Accept Mt Poeterring's trash or change distro, or things will only break.

Edit: I have used PulseAudio for years so I know that Poetering is nowhere near as good a programmer as he should be, never mind being anything like as good as he thinks he is.
Debian has a cool repository - Devuan is meant to be another debian-based distro, maybe one day it won't exist?
 
Old 01-14-2017, 03:30 PM   #6
273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick295767 View Post
Debian has a cool repository - Devuan is meant to be another debian-based distro, maybe one day it won't exist?
Devuan is, to my mind, a little like GNU+Linux -- the tools are GNU so they're there and anybody can use them.
Personally, I can live with Poetering's messes as I'm sure it will be sorted by somebody else at some point and I'll be dead before the argument ends. If you don't want Poetering's pottering then there are alternatives but you have to ask yourself why you're doing it -- I've no reason not to use Pulse*spit!*Audio or systemd what reasons have you for not using them?
 
Old 01-15-2017, 07:20 AM   #7
fatmac
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Debian can be built without systemd, take a look at AntiX - http://antix.mepis.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Devuan intends to be a replacement of Debian with no reliance on systemd whatsoever, re building their own packages where necessary.

Myself, I have OpenBSD as a back up system if Linux gets taken over by business interests, like RedHat!
 
Old 01-15-2017, 07:31 AM   #8
patrick295767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
Debian can be built without systemd, take a look at AntiX - http://antix.mepis.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Myself, I have OpenBSD as a back up system if Linux gets taken over by business interests, like RedHat!


This is actually what is happening !!!

Slackware is UNIX - Tradition and it will never be BUSINNESSSSED like Ubuntu or Debian.

In my opinion Devuan makes no point. It shall remain a clean DEBIAN with good, Unix tradition, a bit like Slackware.
 
Old 01-15-2017, 11:02 AM   #9
nodir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Erm, Devuan?
Debian is built upon systemd whether we like it or not -- messing with the install process to avoid Poetering's monster will only lead to failure in future.
Accept Mt Poeterring's trash or change distro, or things will only break.
Debian isn't "build upon systemd", it uses systemd as the default init system, which you can change (And has quite a few init systems in the repositories, sysv, runit, openrc, etc).

The problem is not to remove systemd, the problem is to get rid of libsystemd0; as far Debian is concerned.

Last edited by nodir; 01-15-2017 at 11:06 AM.
 
Old 01-15-2017, 11:24 AM   #10
273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodir View Post
Debian isn't "build upon systemd", it uses systemd as the default init system, which you can change (And has quite a few init systems in the repositories, sysv, runit, openrc, etc).

The problem is not to remove systemd, the problem is to get rid of libsystemd0; as far Debian is concerned.
Perhaps I slightly overstated the case but the fact remains that removing systemd from Debian is not trivial as it's the default init system. In removing systemd one is making the install non-standard and setting the system up in such a way that it may just break for no apparent reason. If Debian without systemd were such a trivial thing to accomplish then likely there wouldn't be a Devuan.
 
Old 01-15-2017, 11:42 AM   #11
nodir
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Removing systemd is a trivial thing. Or rather: using a different init system.
Replacing init systems in general.

Why there is devuan you will have to ask them (my shot: debian's way to offer packages as pre-configured binaries which have a dependency on systemd and 2) getting rid of libsystemd0).
Why antix succeeded with it long ago and devuan still is fiddling in the middle of nowhere would be the next question. And antix did it without making that much noise.

That neither means that i would support debian using systemd nor that i wouldn't think that the best bet is to use a different distribution or a different OS if one wants to avoid systemd. All i said is that you *can use a different init system on debian, and you can do it easily (and more init systems than on any other distro, out of box).

Last edited by nodir; 01-15-2017 at 11:43 AM.
 
Old 01-15-2017, 11:44 AM   #12
nodir
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before this goes on forever: I just replaced systemd with sysv on debian-stable ppc. piece of cake.

Last edited by nodir; 01-15-2017 at 11:46 AM.
 
Old 01-15-2017, 11:49 AM   #13
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
if Linux gets taken over by business interests, like RedHat!
It has already happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick295767 View Post
Slackware is UNIX - Tradition and it will never be BUSINNESSSSED like Ubuntu or Debian.
Wrong. Something like the OSX, HP-UX, etc is UNIX - and the *BSDs come close (being the descendants of Berkeley UNIX).

And Slackware is only a distribution, it's a one man band, with a handful of other contributors, no notable software development goes on and it really just distributes upstream packages. This means that Slackware has to build, package and distribute whatever gets thrown at it, by upstream developers. The upstream software is where there is significant corporate influence e.g:

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/members/corporate

Torvalds and other key people/developers are on the payroll of the Linux Foundation which is funded by those members.

Slackware is pretty much Patrick Volkerding's private distribution which is available for other to use and it's all funded by Slackware merchandise sales. It's not a project on the scale of Debian or Red Hat, with many thousands of people contributing and all of the infrastructure and bug trackers, etc.

Whether you like it or not, Linux is heavily corporate influenced and controlled - and not just by Red Hat - and it's been this way a long time before systemd came along.
 
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Old 01-15-2017, 12:41 PM   #14
nodir
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For the ones who do not want to use systemd, still want it to be debian based, there is still the option to use Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD or Debian Gnu/Hurd (the latter being quite a pain, the former: rather not).
 
Old 01-16-2017, 12:26 AM   #15
patrick295767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodir View Post
For the ones who do not want to use systemd, still want it to be debian based, there is still the option to use Debian Gnu/kFreeBSD or Debian Gnu/Hurd (the latter being quite a pain, the former: rather not).
Looks cool to give a try :
https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD

A FreeBSD kernel into a linux like machine! That's sounds good. I am curious about hardware support in general.
 
  


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