Personally, I think it's just the fact that ppl on IRC networks figure they can just "type and forget".

They send in a little msg to IRC, (maybe cause they just lost in a game or something) hoping to start a flame war, then they can sit back and relax and watch all the flames rolling in and get some sort of enjoyment from it. I personally laugh from this sort of activity. However, it appears that now that you can do lots of "logging" with IRC it seems that IRC messages aren't so private anymore.

When ppl post msgs on msg boards they think they are there forever so anyone can point to them and say "Hey Look @ X!!! He says Y to Z!!!" and then they can lose online contacts/friends/reputation.

Just my couple of cents,
./Tiger

Hi

Just want to share my experience with this forum. I have tried Irc too, and the discussions in there are far from serious and it is hard to get a useful answer.

In here I usually get one or more answers in less than an hour and that is perfect for me :-)

In my opinion, IRC has outlived itself, too many teenagers if you ask me (sorry)

Its not necessarily teens per say (although maybe the percentage of them is higher) but its just general immature behavior.

Perceived anonymity + no consequences = total *ssh*les

But that's not limited to IRC, just look at trolls on this forum or any other.
Its sad really to think that these people are only civilized because they know they can't get away with it.

Hi there, Well this is my story so far..... I tried another version of debian as i could not be bothered to sit there while it downloaded itself of the net, For the last 2 years i always use the net install..

So anyways, I still had the X problem and the only answer i could find was nvidia are not supporting anything over the 2.6.3 kernel and i would have to wait.... Which i know is total non-sence.

So i whent to uni grumpy.... and on the way home, guess what i saw...... mandrake 10 on dvd on a pc magazine for the bargin price of £6.99

Well, as i said above i have used debian for years, and the thought about trying an os that some stuff for me instead of me doing myself was a little scary..... but i wiped my disks clean except for my /home partition and insralled mandrake 10.0

Now, aside from 1 tiny video problem (all is in black and white) that only requires me to adjust the hue a little. I am running a 2.6 kernel with everything working out of the box.

So i think i will stay here for a while untill i wanna try debs again. which i am sure i will..

Thats for the help, and the offer of xandros.......... btw whoever sent that, i deleted the e-mail by mistake before i could reply to you..... sorry about that

once again thanks.................

Oh, also i have been on the mandrake irc channel and everyone there seemed sooo very friendly and helpfull, just like here.....

The Greater Internet F*wad theory. Sums it up perfectly. Did you try these forums before running back to windows though? I find that moderated forums are 99x better than IRC, unless you are a F*wad.

I did not get that one, I have not used windows for years.... I dont even have the CDs anymore i dont think???

In essence it says, that people+anonimity = bad things.

Londonboi, I hope you understand that LIVING and SURVIVING Debian and GNU/Linux in general requires a 180 degrees shift - a FUNDAMENTAL departure from the comforts of your Windows world. Everyone here and on the IRC channels suffer albeit in differing degrees when they first decided to make the switch. I have had my fair share of RTFM and PRTFM spurted in my face. Most of the time, they are JUSTIFIED in doing so I must say. WHY? Perhaps reading these FAQs below will give you enough of an idea. ;-)

http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/

http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
http://www.debian.org/support#usenet
http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/

You CANNOT expect the kind of 24/7 365 hand-holding if you want to THRIVE in a Debian environment. The learning curve is a STEEP one ESPECIALLY for one coming from from a point-&-click dummy-proof GUI environment. In many NON-rpm based distros e.g. Debian, Slackware, Gentoo, etc, you have do get your hands DIRTY editing cryptic config files either via a text editor like Kedit, KWrite, Gedit in X or preferably via console mode editors like nano. To be able to do so be in in X or CLI mode, you'll have to know your Linux commands, some programming languages (e.g. C) syntax. There's just NO 2 ways about it. SORRY! The GUI tools just CANNOT suffice for all contingencies, they have NOT reached the kind of necessary sophistication to allow for such a luxury and in my opinion it is BEST that this remains so.

This other skill that you have to pick up FAST in Debian is the WILLINGNESS to EXPLORE and EXPERIMENT. BTW there are some very useful console-based tools to help you configure your X BUT i'm NOT sure if you know of them e.g. xdebconfigurator > check it out at http://packages.debian.org/ > Unstable. ;-) Before I forget, NEVER install Debian on a production machine UNLESS you know what you are doing. Always have on hand a spare HD for trying out new and exotic OSes or distros. And/Or backup your existing data on your windows partition/s.

Newbies, lamers even relatively able users getting told off in an IRC channel, forum, usenet is NOT something UNIQUE to Debian, GNU/Linux or the *BSDs but this kind of thing exist in Windows IRC channels, forums and mailing lists as well. I had this colleague from work who once posted a request for help a local windows forum i.e. he had subconsciously deleted certain variables/keys in his windows 98 registry and he found that on the next bootup he could NOT get into his desktop ... he went on to ask WHY is this so and how he can salvage his win98...the responses he got were along these lines e.g.
1.)
"Must I wash your car, mop your floor, mow your lawn for you as well?"
2.)
"What a fool"
3.)
"I'm NOT at your computer, how am I to know what you should do."
4.)
"Be more specific."
5.)
RTFM

Forget NOT that Debian UNLIKE Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE, JDS or even Slack is NOT a commercial distro BUT a VOLUNTEER-based, NOT-FOR-PROFIT project. We all have day time jobs and other concerns to deal with on a daily basis, WITHOUT the user first HELPING himself/herself to be HELPED...we CANNOT and know NOT how such a user can be HELPED. So if you REALLY want HELP, PLEASE HELP yourself to be HELPED first e.g. READ RELEVANT manuals, docs (the docs, manuals, howtos at debian.org, debianhelp.org. debianplanet.org); scour through ARCHIVES on the various mailing lists and forums suvch as this one e.g. linuxquestions to see IF your question has already been attended to; do the NECESSARY googling, searches on alltheweb, yahoo, altavista, etc; and IF ALL the ABOVE FAILS, please STRUCTURE your question/s in an INTELLIGENT, LOGICAL, COHERENT and SPECIFIC manner that has ALL the MAIN CRUCIAL symptoms, solutions/remedies tried out, logs of relevant processes presented.

If you want a 2.6 kernel or an effortless way to installing it along with flash, java, NTFS RW, nvidia supportl a click away or working out-of-the-box > try KANOTIX, KNOPPIX or wait for the next release of MEPIS (early Beta is out). For Kanotix, all you need to do to get a working 2.6 kernel is to download the shell script from http://kano.mipooh.net/ follow the instructions and wala! This script can be modified to work on Knoppix as well, just examine the lines and make the relevant alterations.

Hope this helps!

Hi there mate and thanks for your reply. I did not intend for this topic to go on so long, but hey there you go.

Well with regards to the reading and learning.... well i have dont that for the problem to which i faced, in fact the answer to the problem was very simple , it was the refresh rate that was set in the X config file... Doh! bare in mind i have used linux for 2 years, well more then that in fact......

I do read as much as my brain will take, sometimes i research a problem for days before i ask a question....... 9 times out of 10 i find the answer on the web or on this forum, so in the end io have no need to ask.

But, once in a while i have a problem i can not find an answer to, even if it is a simple problem that i should be able to answer.

Think about this. everyone knows the world is round right????? Well go back 1000 years..... Does everyone know that? no, they think it is flat..... They think that because they have no reason to think otherwise......

Now in Linux, X wont start at the resolution you want! even tho you have configured it yourself! even re-wrote most of it yourself because you know what you are doing! But..... it dosent do exactly what you ask it to do..... well you look for the answer.... cant find it, then you ask the question! you then get an answer, or at least pointed in the correct direction...... that is how to learn something, right?

Now consider this. you ask a question and the reply is RTFM, PRTFM or we dont care about your x problem...... first which manual do you read? there are thousands.... you dont learn, and so you dont get the problem fixed.

Anyway mabey i have babled on here.... but the point i am trying to make is its not that hard to help a little with the problem if you know the answer, and the mention that you should RTFM. And the help i am refuring to could even be a point in the correct direction..


Anywys, I am on mandrake for the moment, on a 2.6 kernel which seems to be working fine, no problems now.... So i will stay here for a while while my studys are going on and maybe in the summer vacation go back to linux

Take care

Londonboi

Hmmm have you tried xdebconfigurator as I have suggested earlier? I hope you don't take what I said or some of the comments from the HARD-HITTERS on IRC too HARD...like I said try looking at it positively...I have grown pretty INMUNE to RTFM and PRTFM...NOT sure if this is a good sign BUT yeah SURE, there are circumstances that require that bit of 3rd party input EVEN for at times a very mundane issue...the mind gets JAMMED sometimes BUT do try installing and then running xdebconfigurator and whatever dependent packages you must...



PS: This is Pr1musr3x using his other a/c ...

hi there,

no i did not thinking you were being hard or anything, but i guess the point i was making was that sometimes the simplest of problems can be the hardest thing if you dont have the answer or have no idea what is wrong and where to start looking. Just knowing the problem is with the XF config fie is not enough..

It is reletivly simple if i should have the problem again (which i doubt) because i know what it was the first time round ))

one thing i might do is play around with debian in VMware, I have that thing with nothing to try in it


Oh, and any web designers out there, im looking to start a forum for my website, so if someone can help out by pointing me in the right direction would be greatly apreciaated.... this forum project is for my uni course

Peace

Even if sometimes one says you have to RTFM, sometimes you really have to....

Not to start a flame war but look at mandrake, redhat, fedora questions, even this and other forums, sometimes some should RTFM, really ....

Oh, and any web designers out there, im looking to start a forum for my website, so if someone can help out by pointing me in the right direction would be greatly apreciaated.... this forum project is for my uni course
knowing at least how to program a dynamic script language, sql, html should be enough. Won't RFTM you or say google it...

Well that leads me back to, What might be easy for you may not be for others, god it took me 1 week to work out how to unzip a tar.bz2 file when i first started out.

Thanks for not telling to do that, because i am alreading looking but still would like suggestions from others who may have experience already.

I havent been in a flame war yet, but i have been told they are hot

unless I have complex specific questions, I never post on IRC cause I know what response I'l get (or none for that matter).

These forums IMHO are fkin great, everybody helps everybody cause we want to show Al Gore what we're made of.

I think the trick is to ask the most complex question to get at least an answer that can be somewhat helpful. Questions like "how to configure "something"?" are too common and the so-called "leets" that hang out in the channels 24/7 are fed up of answering maybe?

People saying google can find anything is false. Google finds a lot of stuff but sometimes I search so much that I'm pretty sure that I can't find what I'm looking for, therefore I come here

my .02 golden cents (worth alot!)

Do ZOOM in on the 2 FAQs (http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ and http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/) in particular. They spell out in NO UNCERTAIN terms what Debian expects of its users...can't stomach it? Well, NO harm done, GNU/Linux is all about CHOICE and FREEDOM, you are FREE and have the CHOICE to dump Debian and try something else e.g. rpm-based distros (BUT be prepared to live WITHOUT the comfort of APT and be prepared to live with dependency HELL).

I find it strange that if one can bother to be EXTRA CAREFUL in looking at the FINE print and italics in documents one has to put his/her signature to BUT is NOT bothered to read BASIC documentations that will perhaps save you the MISERY of UNECESSARY RE-INSTALLS, CORRUPTION of data (on other partitions e.g. your Windows partitions...it can happen), etc on what despite REPEATED WARNINGS NOT to do so, many still INSIST on installing a new distro e.g. Mepis on a production machine. How can we help people who IGNORES, REFUSES, REJECTS to be helped?

This is like playing with matches/lighters and burning down one's house and then telling people that: "hey, I was trying to be more experimental and taking a bold step in discovering how fire works...why should I be bothered with advise by the fire service/civil defence NOT to play with fire?" OR when I happened to be hauled up before a court of Law for committing to some kind of contract that I signed WITHOUT bothering to examine the FINE print and italics, can I then tell the court:" Hey, I've better things to do with my time then to strain my eyes and waste my brain cells reading/comprehending the terms and conditions hidden in the FINE print/italics." This is irresponsibility on the part of the user NOT that of Debian.

We do NOT provide FAQs, Docs, Manuals, HOWTOS for NO reason. They are here to help you bypass pitfalls, make your life EASIER and save you some UNNECESSARY HEARTACHES and possibly an attack of STROKE.

I'm sorry if some feel that one can hope to survive in a Debian-centered environment WITHOUT the need to get one's hands DIRTY e.g. searching for and reading FAQs, Docs, Manuals, Howtos, archives of mailing lists, etc. I sincerely wishes you the BEST when superblock failures and the likes or the evil ramifications of mixing your packages from various branches make you tear your hair out. We do NOT encourage you to read EACH and EVERY line in EACH and EVERY FAQs, Docs, Manuals, Howtos, archives of mailing lists, etc...there is this insignificant skill we pick up in high scholl here i.e. quick browse of the entire text once then going over the importatnt sections 2-3 times...close your eyes and visualize what the sections are trying to tell you...imagine yourself in the that situation described in the particular section and applying the techniques and suggestions highlighted in text.

Debian is NOT a 'hand-holding' dummy friendly distro. Like Slackware (Slackers are even more renowned for being INTOLERANT of folks who do NOT READ FAQs, Docs, Manuals, Howtos, archives of mailing lists, etc and for giving GENTLE advice like RTFM or PRTFM).

In Debian and Slackware and Gentoo as well, you have to know what you are doing and the assumption generally is you know what you are doing i.e. in getiing your hands DIRTY in editing text-based config files either in X or via the commandline (you will have to work from the commandline if X fails)...just NO 2 ways about it. This is REALLY the BEAUTY of GNU/Linux i.e. NO GUI > NO probs, we can still do our work e.g. we can surf the web with Lynx, chat on ICQ using centericq, ftp for files using ncftp, etc. To be able to do so, SORRY, you have to READ FAQs, Docs, Manuals, Howtos, archives of mailing lists, etc and learn some C, C++, perl, etc. GNU/Linux has NOT reached the kind of sophistication that requires NO user intervention to FIX things underneath the hood...SORRY! Very often you have to...SORRY that I ahve to sink this HARD REALITY and FACT in...if you think you are NOT prepared to live and breathe GNU/Linux the GNU/Linux way, you are fREE to choose an alternative OSes like Windows, OS X, QNX, OpenBEOS, Minuet, Sky OS, etc.

We just CANNOT satisfy anybody and everybody and given the nature that is Debian i.e. we are a VOLUNTEER-based, NOT-FOR-PROFIT project and NOT a commercial entity like your FAT and WELL-FED M$, Red Hat, Apple, etc...we have NOT the resources to pander to the whims and fancies of every tom, dick and harry. If one can be told for whatever problem you may present to the M$ Helpdesk to i.e. "Reboot the system" or "REFORMAT"...what more do you expect from a VOLUNTEER-based, NOT-FOR-PROFIT project than the support and assistance you already have here in this and other similar natured Debian-related forum?

The STRONG and the WILLING will NEVER be SWAYED, the DETERMINED and the DEVOTED will NEVER be DETERRED, the DEDICATED and WINNERS (NOT LOSERS) will NEVER SURRENDER. Somehow along the way all must be bothered and willing to learn how to edit some config files shows for in no time the skills learnt from LIVING and SURVIVING DEBIAN will stand you in good stead should you meet with occurances like kernel panics, superblock failures, rootkits identification and the likes. mepis has NO GUI answers to these challenges yet. Yes, they will occur to each and every user...it is just a matter of time.

I'm NOT one to only sell you the GOOD but one who will INFORM you of the BAD, EVIL and TWISTED as well. Wake up folks, GNU/Linux and Debian is NO bed of roses...you just have to roll up your sleeves, knuckle down and work out the probs yourself most of the times.

In my years as a volunteer social worker (in my spare time outside of marketing, astrophysical research, military studies, IT and politics), I have come across 80 year old women who still continue to slog their lives away for good-for-nothing sons and daughters hooked on drugs but know not how to take care of their aged mothers but instead bashes them until these poor women have to work as crockery cleaners at fast food restuarants to earn enough money to feed the drug habits of their useless/heartless sons/daughters. I have also seen how 2 ethnically different individuals i.e. one a 75 year old Chinese man (a paralegic) and an ophaned Indian boy have found their soulmates in each other so much so that they regard oen another as family. There are many many many more such accounts of folks that are MORE DESERVING of our HELP than some of the people here. These poor souls above may be aged and frail or are handicapped, some were forsakened by their families when they became old BUT yet they remain FIERCELY INDEPENDENT and INITIATED, refusing the HELP of others, no matter how many a times WE offered our assistance.

I do NOT just talk the talk BUT walk the talk as well UNLIKE some armchair "social activists". Where the situation is DESERVING and GENUINE and where the individual has made an EFFORT but FAILED, I know when to chip in and OFFER my hand. ULTIMATELY of course, I will RESPECT the CHOICE of these individuals if they so desire NO assistance from me whatsoever. It is their OWN FREE CHOICE.

Where the circumtsance is DESERVING, I know when I should chip in and offer my help. The experience of having a ~50 year old Chinese educated (and at that only but for a few years) being able to do a complete Woooody install and then apt-getting his way to a SID distro shows that INDEED where there is A WILL, there will be A WAY. His philosophy in life goes something along these lines: "Son, I may be OLD and NOT highly educated BUT GOD gave me a brain, a pair of functional hands and able legs to be put to CONSTRUCTIVE use. While I welcome help, I do NOT like abusing the generosity of others. I'm NOT a PARASITE"

Hmmm maybe the VERY NATURE and CHARACTER that is Debian are the "pull" factors for me i.e. reasons why I'm attracted to Debian e.g. the POLITICAL and DIY nature e.g. the power structure in the form of the offices of the Debian Project Leader, Debian Project Secretary, those motions, resolutions and annual elections. Policies such as the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG), lack of GUI config tools like YAST and the Mandrake Control Center.

Bear in mind the following 3 sayings/maxims:
Recall JFK once told the American people this? i.e.
"Ask NOT what the Nation can do for you BUT what YOU can do for the NATION"

Modifying it a little...>
1.)
"Ask NOT how the Debian community can HELP YOU BUT HOW YOU can HELP YOURSELF to be HELPED"

The next one comes from my elementary teacher (I'm way into my thirties now)...
2.)"FAILING to PLAN is PLANNING for FAILURE"
> relate this MAXIM to one's pre/post-install preparations/behavior e.g. backing up of data; SMART READING up/COMPREHENSION of FAQs, Docs, Manuals, HOWTOs, archives of posts on mailing lists, IRC, forums, etc and the REDUCTION in incidence of PAIN/HEARTACHE/DUPLICATED EFFORTS.

3.) "The ONE thing that MAN has LEARNT from HISTORY is that MAN NEVER LEARNS from HISTORY"
> relate this to how ONE keeps REPEATING the SAME OLD MISTAKES over and over again. e.g. be it the rise of megalomaniac tyrants e.g. Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam, Pinochet, Khomeini, Aristide, Chavez, etc to ONE's repeated wanting to open up attachments in emails or visiting DUBITABLE websites with QUESTIONABLE contents and both leading to the "OWNING" and ZOMBYING" of ONE's and other users' PCs.

Just my 1 * 10^-99 cents.