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vxc69 08-20-2004 03:20 PM

Debian Review - (Debian was made for KDE)
 
My :twocents: review of Debian:


Being a newbie, I didn't want to deal with Debian because they called sarge a "testing" version. Well it may be a "testing" version but it's rock solid (and it was built for KDE).

Okay, let me get to the point:

I've used Suse 6.1, Red Hat 7.3, Mandrake 9.2, Mandrake 10 and Fedora Core 2.

Keeping Suse aside you can see that the rest of the distributions I've used is pretty much red hat or based on red hat.

Recently, I got a copy of Knoppix 3.4 (Debian based live CD) from a local LUG member. I loved it, because unlike any of the distributions I've used, KDE worked super fast. So I did an hd install, played around with it and loved it sooo much I decided to do a net-install of Debian Sarge. It took some time to download and install but in the end it was worth it.

I couldn't believe the difference in speed when I compared Debian to any of the other distributions.

These are my specs:
P4 1.7 GHQ
256 RD-RAM

I'm so excited I can't wait to get my hands on the 8 CD's.

I think I'm gonna start callin my self a Debian man :D

vxc

vxc69 08-20-2004 03:27 PM

Or should I say KDE was made for Debian?

XavierP 08-20-2004 03:30 PM

Moved: This thread is more suitable in Debian and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question get the exposure it deserves.

Have you thought about submitting this to our Distro Review Section?

vxc69 08-20-2004 04:07 PM

I knew it was going to get moved :D.

I'll submit a new one to the Distro review section once I get all 8 CD's. (I know this cool Buddhist Monk who uses linux. He set up a local Open Source Software Center where anyone could buy anything open source)

:jawa:,
vxc

utanja 08-20-2004 04:45 PM

i am curious as to why you think Debian was made for KDE.....

i use gnome and would like your opinion as to why KDE over gnome...

vxc69 08-20-2004 05:00 PM

Gnome is good. In fact Gnome works better than KDE on Fedora and Red Hat. This points out to the fact that Gnome is actually better in terms of responsiveness.

But I use KDE because:

1.) I started using KDE before Gnome.
2.) I was never able to get used to Gnome.
3.) I love the KDE theme Baghira!
4.) Being a previous "luser", I'm still used to those bloated effects and themes.

I'm hoping to move over to Gnome and get used to it. Then I hope to never ever use a DM - maybe something simple like IceWM.

Ah, the mighty power of the CLI :p

EDIT: BTW, Ich habe einen hund!

utanja 08-20-2004 05:18 PM

sprichts du deutsch?:confused: deutscher, schweizer oder oesterreicher?

vxc69 08-20-2004 05:20 PM

Ich sprachen [insert german words for "a little bit" here] auf deutsch. :p

I think thats correct :scratch:

Ich bin nicht deutscher, shweizer oder oesterreicher! :D

utanja 08-20-2004 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vxc69
Ich spreche<sprachen> wenig[insert german words for "a little bit" here] auf deutsch. :p

I think thats correct :scratch:

Ich bin nicht deutscher, shweizer oder oesterreicher! :D
ah...

macondo 08-20-2004 07:51 PM

hehe! it goes like this:

Newbie installs Debian/Linux and KDE because it's pretty, because it has programs that do things he doesn't know how to do, nor he wants to understand. Because EVERYBODY he knows uses KDE.

Newbie becomes radical, moves to GNOME, that's where is at, the articles he reads say so, maybe somebody he admires uses GNOME, etc.

Newbie comes to the realization, the above mentioned are crap, all show and no speed. Newbie installs XFCE4, pretty, fast, light. Newbie becomes a revolutionary.

By now, he/she learned to use the CLI and finds out that:

#dpkg -i <first word of downloaded program> + TAB + Enter

is faster than kpackage, and discovered he/she needs no icons on the taskbar with IceWM, because Ctrl + Alt + <letter he/she chooses> will give him/her an xterm, or Xchat or Mozilla, or OOo, or whatever he wants.

It's fast as lightning and saves him/her 100+ MB of space, it never gives you any problem no matter what new version comes out.

Newbie becomes a guerilla, he wants to get to his apps fast, he can't care less about eye candy or desklets, because it doesn't matter if he is running an old box with 64 MB of memory or 256, he is flying. Newbie starts reinstalling Debian several times a month, doing minimal installs, choosing his apps based on light weight and speed, always looking for an edge, he wants his Debian lean and mean, newbie is growing up. Newbie starts RTFM, for the sport of it, learning, reading for the hell of it.

Newbie begins to understand Gnu/Debian.

vxc69 08-21-2004 01:45 AM

WOW :eek: ! So thats what's ahead!

powadha 08-21-2004 04:57 AM

Yeah, or you just use Debian the way you like it since you are on a blazing fast expensive pc and you don't care about 100+ mb since you have gigs to spare and more memory then you can count........

Which does make it a lot less fun though....personally I go both ways. Most of the time I use fluxbox but on one of the other clients KDE does its thing. Guess it's all up to what you want with your box. If you're not into learning and just want to use your pc stick with KDE or Gnome, anything else will make you end up with Fluxbox, ICEwm or the likes.....

Installing Debian several times a month is crap btw. You don't have to since you can always remove or add things easily in Debian (or whatever distro) Thats what makes linux so much better then Windows.

Cheers

macondo 08-21-2004 12:27 PM

"Installing Debian several times a month is crap btw. You don't have to since you can always remove or add things easily in Debian (or whatever distro) Thats what makes linux so much better then Windows."

Hehe, let's say you want to make a net install instead of a cd one (because you want to learn how to do it), you want to try the new beta installer, you want to try a reiserfs, xfs, or any other file system, you want to try a different woody based on a different file system, You want to see how MEPIS, KANOTIX or Libranet 2.8.1 behaves, you only got a 10 MB hd, THEN YOU HAVE TO REINSTALL, because you are trying new things.

As for KDE, if it behaves reasonably on a fast processor with lots of RAM, can you imagine what IceWM/Fluxbox/WMaker would do on it? Talk about crap, huh?


powadha 08-21-2004 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by macondo
"Installing Debian several times a month is crap btw. You don't have to since you can always remove or add things easily in Debian (or whatever distro) Thats what makes linux so much better then Windows."

Hehe, let's say you want to make a net install instead of a cd one (because you want to learn how to do it), you want to try the new beta installer, you want to try a reiserfs, xfs, or any other file system, you want to try a different woody based on a different file system, You want to see how MEPIS, KANOTIX or Libranet 2.8.1 behaves, you only got a 10 MB hd, THEN YOU HAVE TO REINSTALL, because you are trying new things.

True, but you'd better get a second client, this way you won't be able to do much work on deb. In the end people install debian or linux to use software on because it's stable and fast. Not to install an OS several times a month. Just installing debian won't make you a linux expert, using it and reading about it does. Most people don't care about the filesystem and if they do they usually know what they are doing and make their pick before installing depending on their use of the system. Installing MEPIS or whatever can be usefull if it fills your needs. Personally I use straight deb and configure the clients for their needs myself. More fun and better for your skills. Whatever they offer can be build or installed by you.

Quote:

As for KDE, if it behaves reasonably on a fast processor with lots of RAM, can you imagine what IceWM/Fluxbox/WMaker would do on it? Talk about crap, huh?
Yes I can....Like I said I have several pc's running debian and the faster ones use KDE next to Flux, the older once only flux or no X at all. On older pc's it does make a difference (big one) which is not surprising. On the faster pc's the difference isn't enough to make it noticable (or enoying if you like). Perhaps you should try and configure KDE a bit better before reinstalling debian ;) I'm a Flux fan but won't recommend it to a newbie, you need those icons if you're new in linux since it's about the only thing left the same after leaving wincrap ;)

If you use linux only to install and reinstall then go ahead and have fun. If you actually want to use your system for other uses then installing I guess a different approach is needed. A second pc is always fun btw, installing new stuff can be tested and screw ups won't matter that much.

macondo 08-21-2004 02:23 PM

"True, but you'd better get a second client, this way you won't be able to do much work on deb."

A second client??? Where do you live, pal? In the First World? Most of the people who use Debian or any other Linux live in the Third World (Windows is out, too expensive, too insecure), this is done out of necessity, not by choice.
You have to make do with a Pentium or PII.

"In the end people install debian or linux to use software on because it's stable and fast. Not to install an OS several times a month."

Obviously. You work all week, and on the weekend you reinstall to learn more about what you are doing.

"Just installing debian won't make you a linux expert, using it and reading about it does."

I disagree, in doing is where you learn, you can read all you want, but if you don't use cfdisk and do different partitions schemes, you are not going to learn didly.

"Most people don't care about the filesystem and if they do they usually know what they are doing and make their pick before installing depending on their use of the system."

Correction: it's not that they don't care, it is that they DON'T KNOW. How are they going to learn, if they don't experiment? Do it?

"Installing MEPIS or whatever can be usefull if it fills your needs. Personally I use straight deb and configure the clients for their needs myself. More fun and better for your skills. Whatever they offer can be build or installed by you."

It's pretty evident you don't see my point: i use Debian/Sid, but other debian based distros intrigue me, in order to check them out, i have to install them, i don't use knoppix, but i had to install it, otherwise, how can I have an opinion about it?, by reading? :D

"Yes I can....Like I said I have several pc's running debian and the faster ones use KDE next to Flux, the older once only flux or no X at all. On older pc's it does make a difference (big one) which is not surprising."

Agreed.


"On the faster pc's the difference isn't enough to make it noticable (or enoying if you like)."

How can this be? The wms above mentioned, weigh from 500kb to 1MB, KDE is OVER
100 MB!


"Perhaps you should try and configure KDE a bit better before reinstalling debian ;)"

Oh, but i've done it, my PII/266 is slow with KDE, no matter what i do, KDE is a bloated behemoth that does not do anything for me THAT IceWM/Fluxbox/WMaker doesn't do faster. With KDE, i have to WAIT, for it to come on, with the other three, it's instantaneous. It is faster than my neighbor's P4 with KDE, finally, he saw the light and now uses XFCE4.


"I'm a Flux fan but won't recommend it to a newbie, you need those icons if you're new in linux since it's about the only thing left the same after leaving wincrap ;)"

Really? I think you are underestimating some newbies, what can be easier than right-clicking on the desktop or the 'slit', and choosing from the Debian menu? Fluxbox is the most popular wm, voted the most intuitive wm by Slashdot or was it Newsforge?

"If you use linux only to install and reinstall then go ahead and have fun."

You are assuming that is ALL i do, i got a job, weekends i reserve for testing and learning, and to me there is fun in learning.

"If you actually want to use your system for other uses then installing I guess a different approach is needed."

Here we go again, why is it hard for you to realize, you can work normally, save everything important to your web-mail, reinstall, screw up, read, google, hit the mailing list, come back with a new configuration, extra knowledge, bring back your docs from Yahoo mail. and start fresh on Monday morning with Sarge, with XFS, Shorewall, GRUB, Debian in Spanish and the rest of the apps? I got the time and the thirst for knowledge, why not? Why do i have to use KDE or GNOME, when in trial after trial, they are slower than IceWM/Fluxbox/WMaker, the eye candy and tons of libraries are such a waste of resources better allocated to speed IMHO.
Now, how would i know this, if not by testing, reinstalling, trying new apps, filesystems, bootloaders, and different debian versions? By reading?

"A second pc is always fun btw, installing new stuff can be tested and screw ups won't matter that much."

Indeed. If you can afford it.

vrln 08-21-2004 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by macondo

Fluxbox is the most popular wm, voted the most intuitive wm by Slashdot or was it Newsforge?

And it was voted window manager of the year 2003 here in linuxquestions.org :)

ps: my 0.5 cends about distro shuffling: I also install all major distributions I can find, just to check them out. You can't really have an opinion about a distribution if you haven't installed/configured it at least once. And it's always nice to see how other distros have evolved.

Pudduh 02-22-2006 10:13 AM

I'm a beginner at Linux for quite some time.

I started out with dual booting Fedora and Windows. When I learnt that it wasn't the smartest idea in the world I decided to just have Fedora in a nice sized external HDD instead and connected it up when I wanted to use Fedora.

When I wanted something more adventurous I replaced Fedora with Debian and I switched from KDE to Gnome. I'm just starting to get used to Gnome which means that when I start to get used to something I get bored. And when I get bored I start to fiddle.

I think I'll be moving onto WM once I know my way about the command line enough to do stuff on there :)

Khepri 02-22-2006 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macondo
hehe! it goes like this:

Newbie installs Debian/Linux and KDE because it's pretty, because it has programs that do things he doesn't know how to do, nor he wants to understand. Because EVERYBODY he knows uses KDE.

Newbie becomes radical, moves to GNOME, that's where is at, the articles he reads say so, maybe somebody he admires uses GNOME, etc.

More like because newbie is used to an overweight/bloated desktop and notices virtually no difference in speed between Windows and KDE/Gnome.... ;)

arnuld 05-27-2007 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macondo
hehe! it goes like this:

Newbie installs Debian/Linux and KDE because it's pretty, because it has programs that do things he doesn't know how to do, nor he wants to understand. Because EVERYBODY he knows uses KDE.

Newbie becomes radical, moves to GNOME, that's where is at, the articles he reads say so, maybe somebody he admires uses GNOME, etc.

Newbie comes to the realization, the above mentioned are crap, all show and no speed. Newbie installs XFCE4, pretty, fast, light. Newbie becomes a revolutionary.

By now, he/she learned to use the CLI and finds out that:

#dpkg -i <first word of downloaded program> + TAB + Enter

is faster than kpackage, and discovered he/she needs no icons on the taskbar with IceWM, because Ctrl + Alt + <letter he/she chooses> will give him/her an xterm, or Xchat or Mozilla, or OOo, or whatever he wants.

It's fast as lightning and saves him/her 100+ MB of space, it never gives you any problem no matter what new version comes out.

Newbie becomes a guerilla, he wants to get to his apps fast, he can't care less about eye candy or desklets, because it doesn't matter if he is running an old box with 64 MB of memory or 256, he is flying. Newbie starts reinstalling Debian several times a month, doing minimal installs, choosing his apps based on light weight and speed, always looking for an edge, he wants his Debian lean and mean, newbie is growing up. Newbie starts RTFM, for the sport of it, learning, reading for the hell of it.

Newbie begins to understand Gnu/Debian.

hey "macondo", this is EXACTLY how i did, i traveled the same path. it is BIGGY-BIG surprise to me that you knew 3 years ago, in 2003, what a newbie like me *will* do in 2006 with GNU distro :-). the only difference is i used lots of distros rather than just one, Debian is the only one that remained for 1 year on my system. now i have reached the RTFM stage. so what next a newbie you will do ?

i am asking because i am facing a trouble :-( i am installing/removing lots of distros, everyday 6 times a week. i want to settle on one distro and use it. i just want these things in my distro:

1.) it must be simple from inside. (though simplicity has lots of meanings. i mean its design must be extensible and simple like GNU software)
2.) reliable and stable
3.) excellent package management system

only 2 distros satisfy all 3 needs: Gentoo and Debian.

Arch, CRUX and Slackware are simplicity based distros but Arch is unstable (yes, i have tried its 3 different releases), CRUX and Slackware lack good package management systems. i am confused.

can you help, i want to understand the GNU (or UNIX way, for that matters). Gentoo or Debian ?

please help me "macondo", i am confused and wasting lots of time :-(

hitest 05-27-2007 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnuld
hey "macondo", this is EXACTLY how i did, i

1.) it must be simple from inside. (though simplicity has lots of meanings. i mean its design must be extensible and simple like GNU software)
2.) reliable and stable
3.) excellent package management system

only 2 distros satisfy all 3 needs: Gentoo and Debian.

I would add Slackware to your list. Slackware meets all three of your criteria. Slackware has many excellent pre-built packages that are available. You can also compile your own packages.
Also, Slackware is a very lean, fast OS without a lot of services turned on by default.
My two favourite distros are Slackware and Debian.:D
I have Slackware running on two units and Debian running on seven work stations.

Daws 05-27-2007 01:15 PM

Quote:

now i have reached the RTFM stage. so what next a newbie you will do ?
Next you start reading the LFS books after realising there is no such thing as a perfect distro and there never will be (although Debian comes pretty close IMO).

hitest 05-27-2007 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daws
Next you start reading the LFS books after realising there is no such thing as a perfect distro and there never will be (although Debian comes pretty close IMO).

Agreed.
Debian does indeed come close to being a perfect distro.

arnuld 05-28-2007 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitest
I would add Slackware to your list. Slackware meets all three of your criteria. Slackware has many excellent pre-built packages that are available. You can also compile your own packages.
Also, Slackware is a very lean, fast OS without a lot of services turned on by default.
My two favourite distros are Slackware and Debian.:D
I have Slackware running on two units and Debian running on seven work stations.

i meant "good dependency handling" when i said an excellent package management system. Slapt-get does not provide dependency handling and manual dependency handling is PITA (YES, i have tried that).

hitest 05-28-2007 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnuld
i meant "good dependency handling" when i said an excellent package management system. Slapt-get does not provide dependency handling and manual dependency handling is PITA (YES, i have tried that).

I personally don't have a problem with checking for dependencies in Slackware. Okay. We will agree to disagree on that one:-)

I also on occasion run FreeBSD and it does have good dependency checking and a superior package management system in ports.
Good luck in your hunt for the perfect distro, arnuld:-)
I have found my two favourite distros: Slackware, Debian.


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