Best cpu for new pc with debian
 

I have been looking for a long time for that fabled grail pc-build which can run off debian main only (without contrib and non-free in /etc/apt/sources.list).
For a new pc build - I need to begin with the cpu.

The arm64 processor is the obvious future-proof choice.
But although debian has an OS for it - I found that the particular manufacturer of my arm64 system-on chip (SoC) can only run Ubuntu.
Looking through the net it seems debian arm64 is do-able - but still pie in the sky for ordinary users.

Step foward Intel and AMD.
I found out that an Intel chip can run on Debian main only - and life was good.
Then I found out that microcode installs onto debian requires contrib and non-free on /etc/apt/sources.list.
So this can only mean that the dream of running solely on debian main is no longer possible.
Which is a shame because Richard Stallman made GNU so we could have debian main only.

Recent information on the net seems to indicate that AMD is much more resistant to Spectre and Meltdown vulnerablities.
So should I get an AMD Ryzen cpu instead of an Intel?

Apologies to those who prefer to see this thread in the hardware forum - but I wanted to speak to those who wanted a debian main-only OS.
Because that is why debian has main and creates contrib and non-free due to grim reality.

Your best bet is to avoid buying hardware that requires proprietary device drivers. It is entirely practical to put together a PC that uses only open-source device drivers.

Firmware is a different story. All modern graphics and wifi cards require firmware, and firmware runs on the graphics or wifi card's embedded controller. Firmware is much closer to hardware in the sense that only the device manufacturer can provide it.

The CPU vulnerabilities are very difficult to exploit. There are a lot more important criteria for choosing a CPU (such as performance and cost).

The most future-proof computer that you can buy is a 64-bit x86 PC. The PC is the only mass-market computer designed to run generic operating systems. Your PC will still run current OSes long after its manufacturer has moved on.
Ed

You have no idea what you're talking about.
But thank you for your hilarious response.

I am asking a serious question about debian and microcode.
Can people who are interested in Linux please reply?
Because debian is Linux (in its proper form - don't ask me ask Stallman).

And if debian can no longer run solely on 'main' because of cpu microcode mitigation - then the community-based global Linux kernel has been forced to become the same as corporate Microsoft and Apple.

If I can only have debian main contrib non-free - then why shouldn't I just get Windows 10 instead?

Can I get an AMD Ryzen build that only works off debian main?

My question is why would you want to? I can't in 20+ years of using Debian ever remember TRYING to run off just main. Even if I had something that might be able to, I'd never consider it since it's still free (as in beer) software, it simply is burdened by some form of licensing that makes it non-free (as in speach). Unless you're an insanely "I refuse to use something that comes with a license even if it's a free license" then there's no ACTUAL reason to avoid contrib and non-free.

I have multiple Ryzen systems, and they have all ran Debian, but the LITERAL first thing I do is add contrib and non-free before I even do my initial updates. And I'd bet that 99.99999999999% of Debian users are similar in how they use it to me, immediately enabling contrib/non-free, so most people probably have no idea how well their hardware WOULD possibly work without it.

Although the microcode, while it's nice to have, isn't a REQUIREMENT to run the OS. It will work perfectly fine without it, and if you're board OEM still releases regular BIOS updates then you're not even gaining anything with the microcode, since it's literally just the same code that's released in bios updates.

As far as running Windows instead of Debian + contrib/non-free, that's just crazy. I specifically run Debian because I don't WANT Windows. I care nothing about adding in software that has licenses. I have purchased fully proprietary software before for my machines, no big deal, since I care about functionality, and therefore don't WANT to constantly be fighting my machine to get something done. So why would I EVER want to return to an OS that's designed around pretty and data gathering instead of stability and functionality?

OP: you ask a question then dismiss answers with snarky responses? Good luck in your futile search.

There were disputes of this kind when I first started using Linux, back in 2004 or thereabouts. Some distros, like Trisquel, were aggressively free while others included proprietary drivers and firmware. The standard kernel, I believe, has bits of boot firmware written into some of its headers. These look like random text strings, so they satisfy the open source requirement but they're actually disguised code. The free distros used a kernel that was free of these strings.

Well there were disputes then about how "free" this was, given that there were machines these distros wouldn't run on. Many people preferred a mainstream distro so that they could use Linux on whatever hardware they had. They said being forced to buy a different machine wasn't their idea of freedom. Then it all seemed to die down. Interesting that it's blown up again.

Well the purpose of debian is so that you can run it off just main. That is why debian makes the important distinctions of main, contrib and non-free.
These distinctions are what makes debian different from other distros and is the primary purpose why we install debian.

The object of running free software is because we can own, control, secure and change the software.
With non-free software - we cannot own, control, secure or change it.
Do you see how much power you have lost as a user?

This is not simply about licensing.
Non-free software is used to gain your user data to make profit. It's used to spy on you. It's used to take away your ownership of the software.

We live in a world of mass surveillance. That means people in US/UK are being spied on through various ways including their computers.
Even if you enjoy being spied upon and the internet controls what you learn, what you buy, how you vote - then there are people who will say that it's wrong and will combat it by using free software only.

As an example, there are news companies saying some people in the US don't believe there is a covid pandemic from the info fed to them by some social media.
This is how easy you and I can be controlled and it's happening now in the real world.

So debian exists so that you don't lose your power/freedom and it does that by having a policy to only use free software.

Propietary software (non-free) may not cost you money - but you can't see the source code.
Debian also doesn't cost you money - but you see all the source code. You are free to see if there's any spyware/malware, you can control and change it.

Yes, but you are simply saying you are not informed of the situation. But that does not make your argument any more valid compared to the linux community.

Meltdown and Spectre (Wikipedia) are a new species of spyware which works through your cpu - not your OS.
Linux kernel deveopers and Linux OS developers have been spending the last few years fighting it. How do you not know about it?
The point is they are 'mitigating' not 'ending' the problem. These vulnerabilities are not stopped by a simple magic security patch - these problems will stay for years in the future.

However there may be hope that AMD Ryzen cpus are less affected and some propietary designs of ARM64 may be completely unaffected.

Really? Could you provide a link to support your argument?

Precisely. But debian isn't a permanent suit of armour. Security is a constant process not a single download.
All non-free software are suspect and removes our freedom.

If you wish you can find more about non-free software from Stallman in his TEDtalks lecture (youtube, 13 mins).

And there's nothing stopping you except your own refusal...

Yes, absolutely not a thing. I choose to use something to make things easier, giving up nothing

Ok...you're a truly paranoid individual who doesn't actually subscribe to logic. Everything that isn't exactly as you want is pure evil and cannot POSSIBLY be anything else.
Got it. /discussion...

There are lots of websites that indicate the microcode is in the BIOS/UEFI but a quick search did not find a primary source from Intel except for instructions to flash a BIOS. The reference links in the Wikipedia page are broken... I would expect that some of the microcode is closed source.

Per the Wikipedia Microcode page
Per the debian webpage
https://wiki.debian.org/Microcode
Intel's instructions for flashing BIOS/UEFI
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/su...structions.pdf

Oh man, ok if you want me to answer it then I will.
I just don't want the discussion veering off at a tangent.

No it isn't. Not any more.
This is because microde security updates for Meltdown and Spectre mitigation requires contrib and non-free on debian.
Please refer to my opening post.

Really? But Intel core processor with integrated gpu does not require non-free firmware.
Intel is actively involved with the development of the Linux kernel.

Firmware is software. Hardware is hardware. These two concepts should not be conflated.
Hardware can be made via several manufacturers under licence. The IBM pc cloned in 1981 is why we all have a pc now made from different companies.

Hardware and firmware can be generic and open source.
The reason why hardware and firmware is proprietary is because of a companies choice. It is not because of the users choice.
A debian users first preference should always be to run on debian main only.

How do you know that? Are you speaking out of experience?
Then when Spectre and Meltdown were eventually revealed a couple of years ago, why was the Linux community working 24/7 to mitigate the harm?
Why are they still working on it?

Really? You mean computer security isn't more important?
The Debian Social Contract isn't important?
But that's why I installed debian and have this thread open on the debian forum.
Wait a minute, do you have a debian install?

Most people in the world use an android mobile computer. It runs off an ARM cpu.
This year Apple is transitioning from Intel cpus to ARM cpus.
The future of cpus is turning towards ARM.

On my opening post I mentioned I already have an ARM64 cpu - but debian cannot run on it. Even so debian can run on some ARM64s.
I am finding that it is too early for 'normal users' to adopt ARM if they want debian.
So yes, the x86_64 architecture is still king for desktops.
But as per the title of this thread - is Intel or AMD best for debian?

An Apple Mac OS costs money. A MS Windows OS costs money.
But what if I told you the world can have a billion-dollar developed OS for FREE?
Everyone would have the free OS right? But that would mean Apple and MS Windows would become niche OSs.

So why hasn't a FREE linux desktop OS been adopted by the world?
This is because big companies can manipulate people, the desemination of information and laws.
They do this to survive, keep making profit and remove people's freedom.

For example, do Linux-users want FOSS software or non-free software?
Would it surprise you if I told you Linux-users want non-free software?
Would it surprise you if told you they cannot even comprehend that the non-free software can easily be made FOSS?
If people cannot even 'comprehend' something despite having the advantage and experience of using a FOSS operating system - then it is a difficult battle indeed to opening people's eyes.

I'm not refusing anything. I just want debian running on the 'main' repo.
This is because debian tells me that is best.

Do you have a setup on debian-main only?
If not, then why not? I mean why don't yiu use a different distro where non-free software is not an issue?


Good point. You are 'giving up nothing'.
Please refer to this Richard Stallman youtube video about non-free software.
I have given the link on an earlier post. It explains why we are 'giving up everything'.

Oh that's cute - you're telling me about 'logic'?
Debian - the OS you have - is saying you should avoid non-free software.
If that's bad logic - then please speak to debian.

The concept of 'evil' does not apply here. This isn't a Star Wars movie.
This is about 'freedom' and doing our best to preserve our freedom.

No, Debian doesn't tell me I should avoid non-free software. They simply make it so that if I WANTED to, I could. They offer contrib and non-free for those that want those extra softwares that don't meet the entire criteria for being free. And actually, Contrib IS free (as in speach), it simply requires something that isn't free (as in speach) to function.

As far as other OS's, I do all the time. I have a couple machines running ARch linux. A machine with Fedora. A machine with Q4OS. Debian is my favorite though because as it's nickname implies, it simply works on EVERYTHING that I throw at it.

I don't really EVER refer to anything about Richard STallman. While he's had some good points in his life, as an overall, I consider him a card carrying member of the tin foil hat wearing looney brigade.

Thank you for your reply. You have provided appropriate sources and I have learned from them.
Even so, some people will say Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of facts.

Yes, and that is the problem.
Since debian microcode upgrades require contrib and non-free in /etc/apt/sources.list - then this means we can no longer have a 'pure' debian-main only install.
This undermines the original purpose of debian.

But given the info on your post, if I have a motherboard which reliably updates its own microcode (releaving the need for debian microde updates) - then can I trust the motherboard manufacturer to keep my cpu safe?

In other words, does the Taiwan motherboard manufacturer have as many developers as a global community-driven outfit like debian?

True, firmware is a specific type of software. Except for coreboot all BIOS/UEFI as far as I know is closed source.

Do you have a problem with other computer peripherals devices with closed source firmware i.e. hard drives. graphic cards, the glue chips in a computer that tie the buses together are programable SoCs, USB flash drives. What about consumer devices like modern TVs?

Only if you update the BIOS/UEFI to the latest version. However, as stated on the debian page the manufacture may not provide release updates just for microcode and they will stop supporting that particular motherboard at some time.

As previously stated just don't use the contrib and non-free repositories...