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Old 03-01-2020, 07:43 AM   #31
hazel
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I don't think it's very productive to denounce Bodhi because it isn't Slackware. You might as well denounce a bee for not being a bird. These two distros are almost a textbook example of the huge range of variability that Linux makes possible.

I love Slackware and I don't much like Bodhi. Some other people probably love Bodhi and can't make head or tail of Slackware. Both distros are described as minimalist but they mean quite different things by it. Slackware is structurally minimalist. The full install contains a huge amount of software (more than I want on any system of mine) but the internal structure is pared to the bone. It's simple as in simplicity. Bodhi is internally complicated and therefore a real pig when it goes wrong, but it comes with very little in the way of user programs. You just add whatever you want to the basic setup. Slackware makes no concessions to newbies, Bodhi is almost ostentatiously newbie-friendly, even encouraging you to use a browser to install software because that's what people are used to in Windows.

Horses for courses, I say. I only have Bodhi on my machine because I'm doing an editing job for the Bodhi team. When that's over, I probably won't be using it again because I don't care for it. But I wouldn't use that as a reason for calling it a lousy distro. I'm sure it's an excellent distro for the people it's angled towards.
 
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:19 AM   #32
rbtylee
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I have been trying hard to ignore all this. No one is asking for help as far as I can tell. All I read is complaining ...

On the very first post, i see the OP is trying to install presumably a wifi driver by compiling the code. The very first mistake. The inability to compile the code is hardly Bodhi's fault. Missing dependencies is par for course in compiling code in all distros. An inability to deal with it, wifi connection or not is User Error. Pure plain and simple and really non negotiable!!

We realize that and that is why in our installer we state:

Quote:
Still need that one bit of software you can't find in our collection? Ask in our forum and we will add it for you!
Did the OP asked for the wifi driver, nope. Just complaints about a missing package. Now perhaps our installer overstates the case, we may or may not package an application, library, driver et all for you. That is going to depend upon other issues like the license of it, the difficulty of adding to our Ubuntu 18.04 base and on and on. Really as I do almost all the packaging for Bodhi, the decision would probably be mine. If the OP had asked I would have looked at the driver, tried compiling it and if at all possible went to the effort of packaging it and adding to our repos. Twice in fact as we support both 32 bit and 64 bit machines.

Now I have no issues with users that add PPAs and install stuff from them or with users that compile code and add it to their system that way. As long as they know what they are doing. But when they do that and break their systems or run into issues they can't resolve and they asking for my help, which mind you I provide for FREE, then it becomes a problem. So really if you are not up to the task ask us to add the package nicely.

Now as to all this complaining that gcc and build-essential are Necessary packages, that is a matter of opinion. Most users never compile software and even the ones that do are going to need far more than just gcc, make and whatever fluff build-essential adds. I have spent half a day trying to chase down dependencies of something I wanted to compile. Not to mention other issues such as compiling old code and having to patch the make files or the code itself because stuff changes over time.

What ends up installed by default on any version of Bodhi is totally our choice. Jeff Hoogland has made almost all of our ISO images with the exception of one release where 'Deepspeed' made the ISOs and the current ISOs I am now working on, and whatever Jeff added to the ISO or removed from them since he starts from a Ubuntu base, was completely Jeffs choice. I have been looking at the packages list of stuff installed by default since Bodhi 1.x and it varies. Some Bodhi ISOs did in fact have gcc and build-essential installed. Most did not. And truthfully Jeff has not been 100% consistent even in the same release. BL 5.0 32 bit by default does has gcc installed. 64 bit does not. I usually run diffs on all our ISOs for a given release.

But none of that is really important except for the part that what is installed by default is our f**king choice. Bodhi is free and we work for free. As far as I know BW-userx has contributed no code. no money, no help at all in any of this. But instead has the audacity to come here and bash our distro over something irrelevant. Keyboard warrior or is that troll who certainly lacks the courage to talk like that to me to my face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiezel View Post
... It's an ignorant rant. PEBKAC (just Google that) pure and simple.

A rude frustration dump like that isn't the way to get help. Perhaps you're not actually looking for help?
Pretty much not looking for help and after all this ranting and raving he certainly is not going to get mine. The problem would have only been a minor hiccup to me. And several solutions have been presented here and I sorta like the chroot idea. I would have simply made an offline installer on a machine with internet connection. Bodhi used to provide offline installers for over 200 apps and I had to make them all in all supported architectures. A little bit of shell script wizardry is all it takes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
agree, my only real arguments are removing the ability to compile and install from source and root user account out of the box ...
Root use account out of the box not going to happen. Bad idea. Fairly well established it is a bad idea too and in my mind not open for debate. You want that either set it up yourself or find a distro that supports that out of the box.

And the ability to compile and install from source, you do know there is a god awfully large amount of programming languages out there don't ya? C is not hardly the only one. How much of this compile and install from source should we support?

Regardless the current bunch of Bodhi 5.1 rc ISOs I am working on do have gcc and make installed but not build-essential. But that has nothing to do with this thread, working on those ISOs predates his thread. In reality reading all this ranting makes me complemplate removing them. Wouldn't break anything as far as moksha and its app are concerned.

And to the OP, I am not going to respond any more than this to your whining and trolling.

Last edited by rbtylee; 03-01-2020 at 04:40 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 11:31 AM   #33
rbtylee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
...

I love Slackware and I don't much like Bodhi. Some other people probably love Bodhi and can't make head or tail of Slackware. Both distros are described as minimalist but they mean quite different things by it. Slackware is structurally minimalist. The full install contains a huge amount of software (more than I want on any system of mine) but the internal structure is pared to the bone. It's simple as in simplicity. Bodhi is internally complicated and therefore a real pig when it goes wrong, but it comes with very little in the way of user programs. You just add whatever you want to the basic setup. Slackware makes no concessions to newbies, Bodhi is almost ostentatiously newbie-friendly, even encouraging you to use a browser to install software because that's what people are used to in Windows.
....
Interesting point about structural minimalism. I am going to have to have give that some thought. Bodhi is not really internally complicated being essentially moksha and EFL. Everything else is either fluff or 'scaffolding to hold everything up'. I could easily enough create a Bodhi slackware clone or even Bodhi on any non linux OS as long as I could compile EFL on it.

And our app center falls in the category of 'fluff', my recommendation is install using apt. And while some reviews have declared Bodhi newbie-friendly I would prefer our users have some linux experience.
 
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:42 AM   #34
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbtylee View Post
Interesting point about structural minimalism. I am going to have to have give that some thought. Bodhi is not really internally complicated being essentially moksha and EFL. Everything else is either fluff or 'scaffolding to hold everything up'.
You seem to forget that underneath Moksha you have something fairly close to Ubuntu and that is complicated. I never liked Ubuntu so it's not surprising (and no reflection on the Bodhi devs) if I don't like Bodhi either.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 12:19 PM   #35
rbtylee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
You seem to forget that underneath Moksha you have something fairly close to Ubuntu and that is complicated. I never liked Ubuntu so it's not surprising (and no reflection on the Bodhi devs) if I don't like Bodhi either.
A huge part of the Ubuntu base has been stripped out. But no I haven't forgotten that all our ISO images so far have been ubuntu based except for our brief attempt at supporting ARM. The ARM images were debian based. I am rather fond of debian and ubuntu based distros but I also am fully aware of how things work underneath the surface. I once went thru the linux from scratch thing all the way up to making it a bodhi clone. Clone in the sense of looks like Bodhi. While doing that I examined most of the packages needed and compared the linux from scratch compilation instructions/patches and configuration to the how the same stuff is patched (If it is patched), packaged and configured in both Ubuntu and pure Debian. I found it quite educational.

I have also examined a wide range of distros in both hardware installs and VM installs. Overall I don't find the debian/ubuntu manner of doing things, configuration, package manager, ... to be overly complex. Perhaps deviating some from the pure Unix philosophy™ here and there, I am not going to argue that.

I will however take time to create a Slackware VM and take a closer look at it. It has been years since I had a slackware VM. I am interested in simplifying our ISO images, but not in abandoning our Ubuntu base unless necessary.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 02:05 PM   #36
Kiezel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbtylee View Post
I am interested in simplifying our ISO images, but not in abandoning our Ubuntu base unless necessary.
Please don't ever abandon the Ubuntu base.... The riches of the Ubuntu repo's being available for Bodhi, is a major asset for Bodhi.

And for *buntu / Linux Mint users who seek an ultra lightweight distro that doesn't deviate too much from what they're used to. That also goes for me, personally: although I've toyed in the past with openSUSE, CentOS and Fedora, I very much prefer to remain within the Ubuntu "ecosystem".
 
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Old 03-01-2020, 03:00 PM   #37
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiezel View Post
Exactly. Whereas establishing temporary internet access by other means, is dead easy. Apart from the options you already mentioned to the OP, you can even use your cell phone for that (USB Tethering feature).

It's an ignorant rant, and not even amusing like some of these rants are. In fact it's rather boring. It's clear that the OP doesn't want help, but only wants to vent. Yawn.
you're brain farting excuses ..
what means are available to a person. me it is public wifi and that is it. period. so yes it puts me in a big bind and there again is no real reason to not have the means to compile source code removed from an install of linux/GNU onto any system.

run make in Bodhi, and it runs then it craps out only because all of the other gcc is not installed to complete what I needed to do. had it been included in the install then I'd not have posted this nor would any of the taken place.

that driver would have compiled and installed and I'd be using Bodhi. it is a oversight on the distributor to try and provide then just in case incident when it is needed. because not all wifi cards are supported out of the box and do require a driver to be compiled and installed within the system.

I am not the only one that has ever ran into this situation and you are treating it as if I am, therefore to you in your mind, it is not an issue. like it is a one time glitch in the system oh well, screw him. then barf out all of these excuses that you expect me to just accept as gospel.

your personality on this issue shows your lack of empathy, which can be put into question as sociopathic behavior.

... Lack of empathy for others ...

Last edited by BW-userx; 03-01-2020 at 03:13 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 04:36 PM   #38
Kiezel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
your personality on this issue shows your lack of empathy, which can be put into question as sociopathic behavior.
Now you're becoming a bit amusing after all... "sociopathic" is rich. I didn't think such complicated words were within your grasp. Thanks for the laugh.

Quem deus vult perdere, prius dementat. Which is Swahili for: may you live happily ever after, bro.

Last edited by Kiezel; 03-01-2020 at 04:39 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 05:31 PM   #39
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I don't think it's very productive to denounce Bodhi because it isn't Slackware. You might as well denounce a bee for not being a bird. These two distros are almost a textbook example of the huge range of variability that Linux makes possible.

I love Slackware and I don't much like Bodhi. Some other people probably love Bodhi and can't make head or tail of Slackware. Both distros are described as minimalist but they mean quite different things by it. Slackware is structurally minimalist. The full install contains a huge amount of software (more than I want on any system of mine) but the internal structure is pared to the bone. It's simple as in simplicity. Bodhi is internally complicated and therefore a real pig when it goes wrong, but it comes with very little in the way of user programs. You just add whatever you want to the basic setup. Slackware makes no concessions to newbies, Bodhi is almost ostentatiously newbie-friendly, even encouraging you to use a browser to install software because that's what people are used to in Windows.

Horses for courses, I say. I only have Bodhi on my machine because I'm doing an editing job for the Bodhi team. When that's over, I probably won't be using it again because I don't care for it. But I wouldn't use that as a reason for calling it a lousy distro. I'm sure it's an excellent distro for the people it's angled towards.
you missed the point by a mile....

I'm simply stating that the failure to include gcc and what ever else is needed to compile source code right after one installs the system is a failure I is not a Bodhi sucks blow it up and kill anyone associated with it rant.

because I too have seen in here others that have a wifi care that does not have the drivers included on install and all they'd need to do is download ONE simple file the source code for that wifi driver and compile it .. as it stands one has to download how many files after having to go through all of the hassle it takes to get it situated to do so and then move them into Bodhi and all other distros like Bodhi that do not install a means to compile source code for cases like this.


it is a hassle and time consuming when all that was needed was to add that package into the iso easy pezy no more hassle.

wow what an idea a hassle free Linux distro

even having make installed which calls gcc to compile and gcc not being there so it throws an error. that is called doing something half ass.

Last edited by BW-userx; 03-01-2020 at 05:36 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 06:16 PM   #40
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiezel View Post
Now you're becoming a bit amusing after all... "sociopathic" is rich. I didn't think such complicated words were within your grasp. Thanks for the laugh.

Quem deus vult perdere, prius dementat. Which is Swahili for: may you live happily ever after, bro.
your comment proves my point ... the joke is on you.

plus you're a lair
Code:
Definition of quos deus vult perdere prius dementat

: those whom a god wishes to destroy he first drives mad
there is no word in Swahili 'Quem' it is not that hard to google this.

another personality trait that is a negative, in the sense of its use here by you.

Last edited by BW-userx; 03-01-2020 at 06:36 PM.
 
Old 03-02-2020, 03:34 AM   #41
Kiezel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
your comment proves my point ... the joke is on you.

plus you're a lair
Code:
Definition of quos deus vult perdere prius dementat

: those whom a god wishes to destroy he first drives mad
there is no word in Swahili 'Quem' it is not that hard to google this.

another personality trait that is a negative, in the sense of its use here by you.
Some depths of thickness are incredible. You're becoming more amusing by the minute. Please continue. LOL
 
Old 03-02-2020, 04:46 AM   #42
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbtylee View Post
A huge part of the Ubuntu base has been stripped out.
I stand corrected.
Quote:
I will however take time to create a Slackware VM and take a closer look at it. It has been years since I had a slackware VM.
Slackware wouldn't work as a base for a Bodhi-type distro because it has no dependency checking. It works on the assumption that most users are going to do the full install, and that anyone who doesn't is sufficiently expert to hunt down the dependencies by themselves. I was able to do that because of my previous experience with LFS/BLFS. I knew the names of most of the libraries I was going to need and was able to trace the remaining ones by using tools like ldd. But Bodhi works on the assumption that most of the software in the final version is going to be added by the user according to his/her personal preferences. That simply isn't possible without a dependency-checking package manager.

You could probably build a Bodhi clone over Fedora but not over Slackware.

Last edited by hazel; 03-02-2020 at 04:48 AM.
 
Old 03-02-2020, 06:24 AM   #43
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiezel View Post
Some depths of thickness are incredible. You're becoming more amusing by the minute. Please continue. LOL
your defense mechanisms are text book. how does that make your ego feel?

now you're actually delving into what you're set out to do, try to incite an argument by outside means, meaning talking to others about what someone else did or is doing, and now that you have that ones attention you're going in for the attack. and ae now wanting to engage one on one with that person to further your attacks to feed your poorly developed ego .. sorry .. you need help..

Last edited by BW-userx; 03-02-2020 at 06:28 AM.
 
Old 03-02-2020, 09:16 AM   #44
michaelk
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Per the rules.
Quote:
Do not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, hostile or insulting.
Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated.
Flame Wars will not be tolerated.
Do not post if you do not have anything constructive to say in the post.
Since rbtylee has basically answered your "question" and due to all the personal attacks I feel the thread as reached its conclusion and is being closed.
 
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