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Old 02-29-2020, 07:23 PM   #16
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colorpurple21859 View Post
Bodhi is promoted as being lightweight and easy to use, ie missing packages that a more full featured distro would include.


chroot from one of the other distros that has wifi working to use apt-get. This laptop has similar wifi, used slackware to chroot into other installed distros after getting slackware wifi working.
not easy to use. because now I got work my way around what they failed to do to provide me with a system ..

I just installed Slackware on this laptop and all I needed to do was untar a file then run
make
sudo make install
and Now I got my wifi working. easy peazy..
 
Old 02-29-2020, 07:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
Or just do as he was doing, but open the packages.debian.org (such as the page for gcc)page for the packages he's downloading and download all the dependencies for it at once, then just do a apt install ./*.deb when rebooting to linux, and it'll simply skip the ones that are already installed of the same version. That's how I did it for an older laptop that had that same issue. Then I bought a cheap ($<5) USB NIC so I didn't have to deal with that again!!
looks like someones see the hassle in all of this failing to have that installed. how much more space does that all really take up?

someone else said light weight. I got 50GB for slack root and gparted says I used 11.9GB for this fresh install of Slackware, and it comes with more than what anyone needs to use. including a compiler .. gezzz

i think it goes much deeper than what they are telling the consumers why they are not including build essentials even the name in itself says it is essential


absolutely necessary; extremely important.

but they still fail to install this absolutely necessary; extremely important packaging into the install of the system itself.

Last edited by BW-userx; 02-29-2020 at 07:39 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 07:47 PM   #18
Timothy Miller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
looks like someones see the hassle in all of this failing to have that installed. how much more space does that all really take up?

someone else said light weight. I got 50GB for slack root and gparted says I used 11.9GB for this fresh install of Slackware, and it comes with more than what anyone needs to use. including a compiler .. gezzz

i think it goes much deeper than what they are telling the consumers why they are not including build essentials even the name in itself says it is essential


absolutely necessary; extremely important.

but they still fail to install this absolutely necessary; extremely important packaging into the install of the system itself.

But it's not an important package for +90% of the users. So why install it? For that 90%, it adds unwanted and uneeded size. Probably 95%+ of all Debian users will NEVER want to compile something from source code and thus don't need it. I myself used linux for 10+ years before I ever compiled something. And even to this day, I only have build-essential installed on my desktop (of 3 Debian machines), because I have no need of building from source on the others. It's only essential for someone that has the desire to build something from scratch, and for most of those that do, it's literally just an "apt install build-essential" away. You're the 1% of the 1% that doesn't have another means of getting network to get the package, and needs the package to get network. Sorry, but it's a huge hassle, but you're NOT the target audience in this use case. You're the incredibly small percentage of users that will have a headache. Cannot make everyone happy. If they bundle everything the iso will get too large and you'll complaints, and you'll have people complaining about so many unnecessary packages installed. I mean, they already do, but still.

Last edited by Timothy Miller; 02-29-2020 at 07:53 PM.
 
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:08 PM   #19
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
But it's not an important package for +90% of the users. So why install it? For that 90%, it adds unwanted and uneeded size. Probably 95%+ of all Debian users will NEVER want to compile something from source code and thus don't need it.
like I said it is turning into a windows system. it is better to uninstall something you do not need then to not have it all because someone else decided for you what is best for you, only to see they were wrong.

as I stated they have the ability to modify an install program to add and remove options within it. so why not use that as I've seen other distros come up with different means to install the distro using a gui.

there is not reason they cannot add a install like option of certain apps

hell slackware where has been doing that every since it came out and still is.

because of this not only me innocent of not having a driver in the disto that only needs to be compiled and installed. which is much easier then now having to download every dependencies that is already in there repos that as I stated can earlier be.

be someone does not need it is because they do not know how to write code so they will never find a need to use a compiler to build something from source because we already did that for you..


but here I am and I seen someone else in here just hours ago in there post in the same situation I am in

the driver for there wifi card is not included in the install they did so they too are now stuck in a situation of not being able to download what is needed to get what is needed to have wifi so they can download the drivers to get wifi to work so they can have it to get the drivers to get the wifi to work

dog chasing his tail here.

Just one simple tarball vs a butt load of debs to download just to get my wifi up and running. I'll pick the the extra few GB of space

I am not the only one that feels this way so it is not a just me situation google hits show how may people are trying to install build essentials after the fact. so your statement of why is questionable.

I'd say that is the reason they use and forgetting this type of situation where even a newbie will find themselves in a bind when all they needed to have someone tell them

just download this tarball untar it and compile it then install it.

now that is too taken away

they have to deal with the how do I figure out everything I need to get to download everything to install what I need to compile this tarball so I can get my net up and running?

and how am I going to do this? undo stress ..


more hassle and needless headaches all because of someone else thinking they know my needs better then me in what I might not be using so will not give it to me first hand. when it is already there for them to add it in and easily removed my the user on his or hers discretion and not theirs that states you will never need it in the first place. but encase you do then it is here for you..

but I cannot get it thanks to your way of thinking.. Mr distro dude who believes he knows my needs better than I , and does not even know who I am or the situation I am in, and does not care about the situation he will be putting me in by denying me the things I do need and can be easily given in the first place.

Last edited by BW-userx; 02-29-2020 at 08:15 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 08:19 PM   #20
Timothy Miller
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But 5 minutes and $3 could have prevented all that headache if you have a router with ethernet ports. And most people do. Plug in a $5 USB NIC, apt install build-essential, build the source, unplug the USB NIC and put it away.

Debian doesn't handhold, and it expects you to know what you need. If you want handholding and trying to make everything that MIGHT be useful available, install Ubuntu.

And if you knew what you needed before installing, it'd be easy. On a VM in a working OS, apt install build essential --download-only -y. Then copy all those files downloaded into a safe location, install Debian/Bodhi/whatever debian-based distro you want to try, plug in wherever those files are installed, apt install ./*.deb. Boom. No hassle, installed.

Last edited by Timothy Miller; 02-29-2020 at 08:22 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 08:32 PM   #21
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
But 5 minutes and $3 could have prevented all that headache if you have a router with ethernet ports. And most people do. Plug in a $5 USB NIC, apt install build-essential, build the source, unplug the USB NIC and put it away.

Debian doesn't handhold, and it expects you to know what you need. If you want handholding and trying to make everything that MIGHT be useful available, install Ubuntu.

And if you knew what you needed before installing, it'd be easy. On a VM in a working OS, apt install build essential --download-only -y. Then copy all those files downloaded into a safe location, install Debian/Bodhi/whatever debian-based distro you want to try, plug in wherever those files are installed, apt install ./*.deb. Boom. No hassle, installed.
there is the "if" and most people have a router and Ethernet and cables laying around the house just in case they get a lame ass disto that decided for me that will will not need that piece of ecclesial software called build essentials so they will not included it in the install.

I'd love to take a poll on the street on that one. how many people that use the internet have a router and cable system setup in there domain.

"If you want handholding and trying to make everything that MIGHT be useful available, install Ubuntu." that is an understatement.


Ubuntututu started this crap. or Debian hard to decide,

they do not have build essentials in the install and everyone that took from what they did follows suit.

Even the founder of GNU will tell you DO NOT USE UBUNTUTU


you mean to say install Slackware and learn how to use it. It has way more then I will ever use and it only takes up 13GB of space and has the means to build compile many different programming languages out of the box.


guidance and a little hand holding goes a long ways and there is no sin in asking for it or giving it.

Linux Questions is established under this way of thinking wither it knows it or not.

and, If I had a millions dollars I'd not be having this conversion with you either.

so yeah as much as I like to try out others to see what they are doing with Linux. Slackware is always there to fall back on.

it is personally disappointing to see how they are turning into windows and others do not even see it.

Last edited by BW-userx; 02-29-2020 at 08:52 PM.
 
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:45 PM   #22
Timothy Miller
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To each their own. I personally hate using Slackware because I like to do netinstalls and just install exactly what I need with nothing more. Installing that much on Slackware without dependency resolution is absolutely infuriating. I want not a single unneeded library installed. Sure, I have 1TB SSD's in most of my systems, but I don't want useless cruft. And while Slackware makes sure it'll work, there's WAY too much to uninstall for me, so I can't use it as an OS. I prefer to plan ahead and use...well, any of the OS's in my little blurby thing over on the left. I can install just an absolute BASE OS, and build it so that only what I absolutely need is installed, and nothing else.

Last edited by Timothy Miller; 02-29-2020 at 08:46 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 08:57 PM   #23
BW-userx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
To each their own. I personally hate using Slackware because I like to do netinstalls and just install exactly what I need with nothing more. Installing that much on Slackware without dependency resolution is absolutely infuriating. I want not a single unneeded library installed. Sure, I have 1TB SSD's in most of my systems, but I don't want useless cruft. And while Slackware makes sure it'll work, there's WAY too much to uninstall for me, so I can't use it as an OS. I prefer to plan ahead and use...well, any of the OS's in my little blurby thing over on the left. I can install just an absolute BASE OS, and build it so that only what I absolutely need is installed, and nothing else.
agree, my only real arguments are removing the ability to compile and install from source and root user account out of the box, and i use a 3rd party app to do the dependency resolution off of slackbuilds.org. and have gotten it down to knowing what I really use so I do not install everything under the sun for that just to see experience anymore.

too I've read they have a means to elevate that installing everything, and just what you need.
so to do that and use a 3rd party to do dependency resolution it makes it what you are looking for in a distro and not having to worry about having to have that USB Stick with the debs to install to get something done because a distro did not give you what you needed in the first place so you can install other apps hassle free.

point in case .. a live usb disto .. put it on a stick and boot it up. my wifi works looks nice, install it. now my wifi does not work. why?

because they said they do not want to violate the free part because the driver for my wifi is not open source. but they just used it to get me wifi in there live disto.

they did not seem to worry about that then. hypocrites. putting me back into this same situation.

Last edited by BW-userx; 02-29-2020 at 09:01 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 09:02 PM   #24
Timothy Miller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
point in case .. a live usb disto .. put it on a stick and boot it up. my wifi works looks nice, install it. now my wifi does not work. why?

So, in this case I actually do agree with you. I HATE when a distro does that. If you have it active in the live environment, it should be available and active once said live environment is installed. Mageia was famous for this...
 
Old 02-29-2020, 09:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
So, in this case I actually do agree with you. I HATE when a distro does that. If you have it active in the live environment, it should be available and active once said live environment is installed. Mageia was famous for this...
as I stated they are trying to control us. it's a conspiracy I tell ya!
kidding aside there is that element of control in their doings. there is no real good reason why the hide root, and give out sudo instead. other then controlling us playing the "we know whats best for you" card.

implying that we the consumer are too stupid and un-educateible to understand or learn how to use root user account, etc..
 
Old 02-29-2020, 09:17 PM   #26
Timothy Miller
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Well no, there is a good reason. If you remove root access, then:

1. It's 1 less account active as a possible vulnerability area for being hacked. This is the MAIN reason Ubuntu decided to use sudo by default, and many distro's (not based on Ubuntu) chose to follow. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the BEST choice, but it IS a valid argument. root can't be hacked if root doesn't exist...
2. Users are less likely to hose their systems by becoming root and doing something boneheaded. This isn't AS GOOD of an argument (since it's not like it's HARD to become root, just requires a few extra letters typed), but I suppose it IS an argument.
3. It's easy enough to fix if you happen to run an OS that chose to go this route. I used to restore having a root account on Kubuntu when I used to test it. I still run a root account on Arch, Void and Debian. I've given up fighting it on Neon and just do sudo though.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 09:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
Well no, there is a good reason. If you remove root access, then:

1. It's 1 less account active as a possible vulnerability area for being hacked. This is the MAIN reason Ubuntu decided to use sudo by default, and many distro's (not based on Ubuntu) chose to follow. Doesn't mean it's necessarily the BEST choice, but it IS a valid argument. root can't be hacked if root doesn't exist...
2. Users are less likely to hose their systems by becoming root and doing something boneheaded. This isn't AS GOOD of an argument (since it's not like it's HARD to become root, just requires a few extra letters typed), but I suppose it IS an argument.
3. It's easy enough to fix if you happen to run an OS that chose to go this route. I used to restore having a root account on Kubuntu when I used to test it. I still run a root account on Arch, Void and Debian. I've given up fighting it on Neon and just do sudo though.
root cannot actually be removed it is an ecclesial part of the system.

I use sudo in slack and everywhere, but there are them instances that come up when root user is needed. so, again I stand on the argument of taking it away from users because they think they know better then the user who will be exposed to it.

That is removing the ability for that user to learn what root is intended for and how to use it as it is intended for. Mistakes are made that is life. let the user take on that responsibility to learn from them mistakes. that too is part of life.

it hinders the mind from thinking for itself. now "we" are being conditioned on relying on the others to tell us what we need or do not need with all of there lame excuses used for justification for doing so.

Last edited by BW-userx; 02-29-2020 at 09:53 PM.
 
Old 02-29-2020, 09:54 PM   #28
Timothy Miller
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True you can't TRULY remove it, but the way Ubuntu is set up, root DOESN'T have the ability to log in via SSH, terminal, or console directly. So it's effectively removed as an avenue of potential attack.

And just because it's removed by default, it's easy enough to restore to that functionality. So they're not STOPPING anyone, they're simply choosing a different default. Same as Slack chooses KDE as it's default workspace, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be distro's that use XFCE because it takes away someone's choice. They're perfectly free to remove XFCE and install KDE. Just a different DEFAULT CHOICE.

Last edited by Timothy Miller; 02-29-2020 at 09:56 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2020, 03:25 AM   #29
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Quote:
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But it's not an important package for +90% of the users. So why install it? For that 90%, it adds unwanted and uneeded size.
Exactly. Whereas establishing temporary internet access by other means, is dead easy. Apart from the options you already mentioned to the OP, you can even use your cell phone for that (USB Tethering feature).

It's an ignorant rant, and not even amusing like some of these rants are. In fact it's rather boring. It's clear that the OP doesn't want help, but only wants to vent. Yawn.
 
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Old 03-01-2020, 04:05 AM   #30
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Return back to the beginning (it was a long time ago, so probably something changed): you can use debmirror to create a partial mirror of any repo, and if I remember well it can handle dependencies. So mirroring gcc will result a local repo containing it and all of its dependencies.
 
  


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