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  1. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by goumba View Comment
    I saw that about Lumina a whiole back. Cool stuff.

    However now we're going to have even more fragmentation in FOSS... can this ever be a good thing?
    The sad reality is corporate control has permeated the open source world to the extent that it is irrevocably broken. Unless something new is developed, "fragmentation", the end is nigh. Xfce already has some Gnome, I cannot think of a better word, compatibility. It will follow Gnome into the dark realm of systemd. KDE probably will also jump on the band wagon, instead of going their own way.
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 05:43 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  2. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rocket357 View Comment
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by goumba
    The BSDs will need a DE for their systems, unless they themselves implement a systemd-ish functionality. The XFCE devs should jump on this. It will help both XFCE, and the BSDs.
    This logic is so incredibly broken as I understood it (please correct me if I misunderstood...XFCE already runs on the BSD's, so I may be mis-reading you)...
    What I meant was that as the BSDs, without systemd functionality, may need a full DE does not need systemd and that this would be an opportunity for XFCE to push to become *the* DE for the BSDs. Of course there is Lumina, but that's nowhere ready for regular usage. In the end, both would benefit.

    I know XFCE will run on the BSDs. XFCE development is slow. As people want to jump from GNOME and KDE, they'll be looking for something as powerful, and that's where I said this whole systemd thing may provide the devs with the kick in the rear they need.
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 03:12 PM by goumba goumba is offline
    Updated 08-23-2014 at 03:14 PM by goumba
  3. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by goumba View Comment
    The BSDs will need a DE for their systems, unless they themselves implement a systemd-ish functionality. The XFCE devs should jump on this. It will help both XFCE, and the BSDs.
    This logic is so incredibly broken as I understood it (please correct me if I misunderstood...XFCE already runs on the BSD's, so I may be mis-reading you)...

    The BSD's will need a DE that implements systemd functionality, because the big DE's on linux are moving that direction? XFCE needs to update to systemd functionality...because the big DE's on Linux are moving that direction?

    How about quit using the big DE's that are "forcing" everyone's hand? Suddenly XFCE devs can focus on...you know...developing XFCE instead of bending to gnome's will. Suddenly the BSD's don't need to expend a ton of their already limited developer resources just to appease ***a different operating system***.

    Think of it like this...there are "standards" (such as POSIX) that allow application developers to move their applications more easily between operating systems. Linux is basically pushing for a new standard. The BSD's may very well implement a minimalist version of said standard (as you've linked for OpenBSD) that calls native pre-existing code, but a "compatibility layer" is a very different beast than all 550+ thousand lines of code of systemd.

    As much as I hate to say it, if systemd were ever pushed as a hard requirement, and the BSD's had to port it to survive, I'd go back to school for philosophy and stop using computers altogether.
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 02:40 PM by rocket357 rocket357 is offline
    Updated 08-23-2014 at 02:41 PM by rocket357
  4. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    I saw that about Lumina a whiole back. Cool stuff.

    However now we're going to have even more fragmentation in FOSS... can this ever be a good thing?
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 12:09 PM by goumba goumba is offline
  5. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Apparently, PCBSD are writing their own desktop:
    http://blog.pcbsd.org/2014/04/quick-lumina-desktop-faq/
    Quote:
    Why create a new desktop environment? Whats wrong with KDE/GNOME/XFCE/<other>?
    Answer: There are many reasons for needing a new desktop environment instead of using the existing ones, mainly because all the major existing DE’s are developed on/for Linux, not BSD. This causes all sorts of problems on BSD, and I am going to try and list a few of the big ones here:
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 07:48 AM by GazL GazL is offline
  6. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    As much as I do like Gnome Shell, perhaps this will serve as a kick in the rear to the developers of XFCE and other DEs that don't rely on systemd to get going on improvements.

    The BSDs will need a DE for their systems, unless they themselves implement a systemd-ish functionality. The XFCE devs should jump on this. It will help both XFCE, and the BSDs.

    Unfortunately OpenBSD is looking for devs to do something to get that systemd functionality. http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/gsoc2014.html#systemd
    Posted 08-23-2014 at 07:20 AM by goumba goumba is offline
  7. Old Comment

    Topics I am sick of.

    I am also getting sick of seeing threads about Kali. Every one I have seen involves someone with beginner, or less, level knowledge wanting to use Kali, because he or she believes using it will make him or her a hacker. The warning on Kali's website; "Kali is for security industry professionals. It is not a system for Linux beginners" must only be there to scare people away. And they cannot figure out why their beginner's questions are ignored on Kali's forum. (And LQ will not let me add a rolling eyes icon. Now I am really pissed off.)
    Posted 08-20-2014 at 09:38 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  8. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rocket357 View Comment
    Or perhaps another Linus will come along and surprise the world with a new kernel project, with all of the beauty and freedom that Linux once promised.
    I would love to create a new OS. Just one small problem. Complete, utter and hopeless lack of knowledge.
    Posted 08-20-2014 at 06:43 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  9. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Damn, above comment makes me want to have a alternate universe look see type of machine where I could see all the neato coolio scenarios all play out.

    One of my genie wishes was to be able to travel through time as a tourista and just look see
    at what other people only theorize about.

    I have a feeling application dependency libs and systemd will be tied together like siamese
    twins. So no matter how much you wanna leave.

    "They just keep pulling you back in"
    Posted 08-20-2014 at 01:46 PM by rokytnji rokytnji is offline
  10. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Comment
    Why is it necessary to replace something that has worked perfectly well for thirty years. What am I missing?
    You really don't need to look any further than a few of the personalities in the game to know this has turned into a religious crusade. As with any oligarchy (magocracy? theocracy?) you have a few decision makers who know best, and their will trumps all reason. That aside, I don't pretend to have an answer to this question. I don't know why the powers that be determined, against all common sense, community feedback, and developer backlash, that systemd is a grand idea. I do not know what they are smoking.

    It must truly suck to be the warden of such knowledge. To know, better than the people themselves, what is best for the masses...what a burden. </sarcasm>

    edit - and to clarify my stance on the BSD portion, corporate and legal interests with BSD caused Linus to write Linux as a clone, completely from scratch, rather than "waste effort" on an OS whose future was uncertain during the AT&T lawsuit. Too bad he couldn't avoid corporate and legal influence indefinitely...but I do suspect that FreeBSD will gain a large number of skilled users who will influence FreeBSD's future, and those who remain in the Linux camp will be doomed to the magocracy/theocracy they are powerless to rebel against.

    Or perhaps another Linus will come along and surprise the world with a new kernel project, with all of the beauty and freedom that Linux once promised. Or perhaps Hurd will cease to be an academic project and RMS will finally be vindicated with his GNU OS concept. Or perhaps even the battle against monolithic kernels will boil over and Minix will take it's rightful place in the minds of the people as the technically superior gem it is. Or maybe Solaris/BeOS/VMS/ReactOS/MyOS/YourOS will reign supreme after ripping open the void. I don't know, but I'll be watching from the (relative) safety of the OpenBSD camp (and the "Theocracy" that Theo provides =).
    Posted 08-20-2014 at 10:42 AM by rocket357 rocket357 is offline
    Updated 08-20-2014 at 10:54 AM by rocket357
  11. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rocket357 View Comment
    At some point, Linux (and any sufficiently advanced open source project) will have to implement some form of systemd-like capabilities.
    Why? Why is it necessary to replace something that has worked perfectly well for thirty years. What am I missing?

    Once the modular design is replaced with an integrated design that limits the choice offered by a modular design, the system will cease to be Linux.

    Quote:
    The majority will have no choice but to suffer "vendor lock-in" and go with systemd.
    Those using Buntu, Mint, et al who know nothing about their systems, Linux/UNIX and free software will continue on blissfully ignorant. BSD will definitely gain from the systemd (and future developments) fiasco, but I predict a new operating system using free software will be created to replace what was one Linux. Of course, that is a few years away.
    Posted 08-20-2014 at 01:52 AM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  12. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    At some point, Linux (and any sufficiently advanced open source project) will have to implement some form of systemd-like capabilities. Unless, of course, Linux is forked.

    I sincerely doubt that the Linux community could, in a manner of speaking, survive the shock of a split like that. I suspect that many will end up in the FreeBSD camp, many will wander back to Windows or Mac, and a few perhaps to other OS's. The majority will have no choice but to suffer "vendor lock-in" and go with systemd.

    Time will tell, but at this point I don't see how anyone could be hopeful.
    Posted 08-19-2014 at 08:37 PM by rocket357 rocket357 is offline
  13. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Wishful thinking. With Debian going systemd, all of its derivatives will have no choice but to follow suit. A big distro like Buntu does not have the resources to go their own way, so how could smaller ones do it?
    Posted 08-19-2014 at 07:02 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  14. Old Comment

    Topics I am sick of.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brianL View Comment
    I'd like to see an end to "Which Linux is best" questions. Have people lost the abilities to think for themselves, try, and choose?
    With the prevalence of "live" images these days, it's nothing at all to try out a distro. The only downside is that people may perceive the slowness of this live image as a slowness in Linux itself, but it should give those who experiment a taste. People just seem to want everyone else to do the work for them.
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 11:41 PM by goumba goumba is offline
    Updated 08-18-2014 at 11:47 PM by goumba
  15. Old Comment
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 07:14 PM by rokytnji rokytnji is offline
  16. Old Comment

    Topics I am sick of.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rokytnji View Comment
    Welcome to becoming mainstream.
    If I wanted to be mainstream, I would cut my hair, listen to pop music crap and be constantly depressed about my tattoo "mistake".
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 06:08 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  17. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    No matter how much systemd is polished it will still be a turd. A turd that controls the system by combining several processes. I have no interest in it.
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 05:57 PM by Randicus Draco Albus Randicus Draco Albus is offline
  18. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Gnome itself will eventually become it's own thing, either a linux distribution itself, or perhaps even an entire different OS.

    I'm not that happy with systemd, but, as a non-developer, not highly technical user, I'm not entirely against it either (I've found quite cool the embedded featurettes to "benchmark" the boot process. I never had the time to make the equivalents work with sysv, but with systemd it "just worked"). But indeed it used to be that I'd not have this sort of issue I'm having sometimes (PC only halts instead of shutting down, despite of the correct command), even in the "testing" line of Debian. I must concede though that it's not exactly shocking since sysvinit was quite well-developed already and one wouldn't expect such problems, even in Debian testing, unless they were implementing many independent "hacks" on sysv. Possibly these things happened in the early days of sysv too.

    Hopefully it eventually gets good enough. And Debian manages to save itself from the worst aspects of Ubuntu, actually influencing it positively instead. Or something somewhat closer this ideal scenario than the worst case scenario.
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 02:03 PM by the dsc the dsc is offline
    Updated 08-18-2014 at 02:05 PM by the dsc
  19. Old Comment

    Topics I am sick of.

    "Year of Linux on the Desktop"...pfffft. Proponents of that have been screaming about market share and other nonsense for literally over a decade now. What was once a really cool OS has become exactly what I dropped when I stopped using Windows ME.

    To quote Michael W Lucas's twitter feed this morning 'Dear #systemd refugees: BSD welcomes you.'
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 10:16 AM by rocket357 rocket357 is offline
  20. Old Comment

    Good-bye Debian

    Meh, I'll keep running Puppy Linux on a partition for grins.
    Posted 08-18-2014 at 09:48 AM by rokytnji rokytnji is offline

  



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