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Old 07-26-2017, 10:29 AM   #31
jggimi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
...I have an OpenBSD box with xenocara and can't tell the difference in the end product from Xorg....
There isn't any difference. Xenocara is the OpenBSD restructuring of X.Org so it can be built and packaged into installation filesets. See www.xenocara.org
 
Old 07-26-2017, 10:54 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by jggimi View Post
There isn't any difference. Xenocara is the OpenBSD restructuring of X.Org so it can be built and packaged into installation filesets. See www.xenocara.org
Xfree

X.org

Xenocara


it is all the same based on MIT graphical processing.

Actually "Y" might be similar?
 
Old 07-26-2017, 02:56 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
If Xorg is going away any time soon I haven't heard about it, which means next to nothing. It works for me so I don't really have a bias against it. I'll go with whatever they decide and learn to love it.
No one has written a boiler-plate library for Wayland yet. That's why adoption is slow. Also, it's different in that the display server, window manager and compositor and a single unit now. Hence the need for a generic low level lib to operate from.

You know how you can build a panel under org and get it on the screen without a running window manager? Can't happen on Wayland. LXQt is a good example, they're using kwindowsystem & kwayland libs from plasma to achieve that bit I think.

Anyway, that's my understanding of the problem. I could be wrong, but then a lot of what I've read would have to be wrong, or I've completely misunderstood it.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 03:02 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
No one has written a boiler-plate library for Wayland yet. That's why adoption is slow. Also, it's different in that the display server, window manager and compositor and a single unit now. Hence the need for a generic low level lib to operate from.

You know how you can build a panel under org and get it on the screen without a running window manager? Can't happen on Wayland. LXQt is a good example, they're using kwindowsystem & kwayland libs from plasma to achieve that bit I think.

Anyway, that's my understanding of the problem. I could be wrong, but then a lot of what I've read would have to be wrong, or I've completely misunderstood it.
I was curious, willing to know more about Wayland, and willing to test programming on Wayland. But there is not sufficient things available about Wayland. Might be a good replacement of X11? Why not? Linux is welcoming every new technologies. Total Freedom.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 01:31 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Xeratul View Post
I was curious, willing to know more about Wayland, and willing to test programming on Wayland. But there is not sufficient things available about Wayland. Might be a good replacement of X11? Why not? Linux is welcoming every new technologies. Total Freedom.
https://youtu.be/GWQh_DmDLKQ Here's one, I'll look for the other. (Another discussion by a Tzien developer at FosDem.) He makes a good point right off about how most people think they know how this stuff works because they've used one. Though, I don't think I fall into that because I've read a lot of graphics books myself, including stuff about Microsoft's GDI (API under the desktop graphics) and textbooks like Interactive Computer Graphics and Realtime Rendering, both of which are CS textbooks.

Last edited by Luridis; 07-27-2017 at 01:32 AM.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 02:31 AM   #36
Luridis
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Okay, that first video was by a former X11 and current (as of it's publishing), Wayland developer. He explained that X isn't network transparent, contrary to popular belief. That it doesn't adhere to the Unix philosophy, it does one thing, but it does it badly (IPC). And finally, how fixing all that crap would break the X specification so badly, that you'd have to rewrite it anyway.

This next video is by a Tzien & Enlightenment developer. He explains many more of the problems with X. (It's cooperative, it's insecure and there's no way for the system to tell or act on an application that's behaving badly.)

https://youtu.be/CeAnSSyv20Q
 
Old 07-27-2017, 03:18 PM   #37
Xeratul
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Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
Okay, that first video was by a former X11 and current (as of it's publishing), Wayland developer. He explained that X isn't network transparent, contrary to popular belief. That it doesn't adhere to the Unix philosophy, it does one thing, but it does it badly (IPC). And finally, how fixing all that crap would break the X specification so badly, that you'd have to rewrite it anyway.

This next video is by a Tzien & Enlightenment developer. He explains many more of the problems with X. (It's cooperative, it's insecure and there's no way for the system to tell or act on an application that's behaving badly.)

https://youtu.be/CeAnSSyv20Q
Your video is good: https://youtu.be/CeAnSSyv20Q W looks cool, but... well.

Looks to me another SystemD story for all distributions.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 03:46 PM   #38
Luridis
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Wayland has nothing to do with Systemd. Weston does, but it's a reference tool for testing the wayland stack. When someone makes a Wayland compositor they can use Systemd, elogind, consolekit2 or whatever they like.

I should point out that what the two big toolkits (GTK & Qt) are currently doing is bad. They're making hybridized compositors that will run both Wayland and X11. It's like they haven't even looked at XWayland, which already did all that work for them and in a sane way. The way they are going about it it will be a repeat of the way we still need both classic X and XCB, when XCB was intended to replace alot of legacy X components. We'll never get rid of X11 with the setup they're developing.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 03:50 PM   #39
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Wayland has nothing to do with Systemd. Weston does, but it's a reference tool for testing the wayland stack. When someone makes a Wayland compositor they can use Systemd, elogind, consolekit2 or whatever they like.

I should point out that what the two big toolkits (GTK & Qt) are currently doing is bad. They're making hybridized compositors that will run both Wayland and X11. It's like they haven't even looked at XWayland, which already did all that work for them and in a sane way. The way they are going about it it will be a repeat of the way we still need both classic X and XCB, when XCB was intended to replace alot of legacy X components. We'll never get rid of X11 with the setup they're developing.
I am not sure that replacing old good softwares with new things is a good thing.

Linux should keep SysV, X11, Motif, ... libx11-dev, intrinsic, ... old good things, just because they are good and not heavy coded.
GTK, QT, KDE,... can do whatever they want, wayland too, but distributions shall offer a possibility to have old efficient softwares but also shining softwares.

Freedom of choice is Freedom.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 04:42 PM   #40
Luridis
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So, just like the GTK/Qt guys. You didn't bother to even look at XWayland. X is not good, it's terrible, that's the whole f'n point. People assume it's good because it works. Opening your front door by taking off the hinges with a screwdriver works too, but its far from ideal. Crank starting your damn car would work too, but I doubt most of us would want to bother with it. All that's without even mentioning that it was designed around the idea that software could be trusted, it cannot be, or maybe you live in a different world than the rest of us.

Last edited by Luridis; 07-27-2017 at 04:44 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2017, 07:14 PM   #41
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My problem is that I imagine things like this...

A native Wayland compositor like Openbox, only it includes a customizable panel. No need of a full widget kit, it already contains everything needed for standard desktop duty. There's no need for compton, or compiz or some other hack, because it's already a compositor. X11 is there, but running as the XWayland client, so you never have to deal with it's video driver or input B.S. again. It's small, it's clean, it's written in C and has no need of introspection BS. It's memory footprint is smaller than xfce, unless you're running some old X application. It has python & golang FFI's for the panel, so putting together an applet is simple and most of support structure lies outside of the gui. The only thing you must write for a applet is the code for what's displayed in the window. There's nothing built in... no volume control, no cpu monitor, no weatherbug, no battery monitor... that that stuff comes as little applet front-ends to other external programs that already do all that crap anyway. Finally, there's a small & simple xdg based theme changer. It doesn't even come with a terminal!

Guess I could call it the DIY Wayland Desktop. :P
 
Old 07-28-2017, 03:53 AM   #42
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
People assume it's good because it works.
This can be applied to a lot of other (controversial) software as well...
 
Old 07-28-2017, 08:17 AM   #43
Luridis
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This can be applied to a lot of other (controversial) software as well...
Is the subject going to change to that controversial program? I'd like to know so I can unsubscribe the thread if that's the case.
 
Old 07-28-2017, 08:39 AM   #44
Xeratul
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Is the subject going to change to that controversial program? I'd like to know so I can unsubscribe the thread if that's the case.
the topic is (in case or was):
will-bsd-keep-x11-in-the-future

- Probably, but actually, maybe not. Nobody really knows. Thread solved.
 
Old 07-28-2017, 08:46 AM   #45
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the topic is (in case or was):
will-bsd-keep-x11-in-the-future

- Probably, but actually, maybe not. Nobody really knows. Thread solved.
No, because the X developers are depreciating it. They understand it and why this is necessary.

Now, what I find funny is that anyone who would threaten to fork and keep it alive is doomed to fail. Why? Because it's difficult and few people understand X's inner workings as-is. What is funny is that the minute they begin to understand how to maintain it, they'll see exactly why it needs to be replaced. As for the BSD developers... They're better than most and I suspect it wouldn't take them long to estimate that it is better to leave sleeping dogs lie in the case of X11. Certainly, none of their business clients are interested in at as the Tzien developer so eloquently pointed out in the video I linked.
 
  


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