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Old 05-11-2004, 09:42 PM   #31
apache363
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I program, but yeah, not much use.
Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Old 05-11-2004, 10:58 PM   #32
chort
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Well zsh can emmulate most of the other shells, including bash. sh is essentially very similar to bash/ksh/zsh as far as syntax, but more primative. sh is the Bourne SHell, so bash is the Bourne Again SHell (ksh and zsh are also expanded versions of Bourne).

csh is quite a bit different in syntax, and so far as I can tell tcsh is an expanded clone of csh.

I use the first four shells pretty much interchangably. I avoid the latter two like the plague, but that's just a personal prefernce.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 06:32 AM   #33
apache363
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Just curious...do you have a reason for avoiding them?
 
Old 05-12-2004, 07:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stack
Slackware fixes dependancy hell? It prevents GPL zealots? I was always put off with the Slackware people and their make everything hard to configure. I has been my experience that people who use Slackware somehow think they are better because their systems are harder to administrate and maintain. Some people just want a flawless system that just works with no crap about getting dependancies.
"First and last" means first and last, not third and last.

It's been my experience BSD people don't make converts very well because they gratuitously slam Linux users' choice of OS and make generalized character assassinations, thereby making Linux users leave in disgust.

Just curious...do you have a reason for avoiding them?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/ , among others.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 10:55 AM   #35
Stack
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Quote:
It's been my experience BSD people don't make converts very well because they gratuitously slam Linux users' choice of OS and make generalized character assassinations, thereby making Linux users leave in disgust.
Your welcome to leave in disgust then i dont see you helping anyone with any BSD related problems. We are not out to convert Linux users anyways. We are quite fine on our own. I think the problem with BSD users in general is we dont seem to have become the trained zealots Stallman enjoys with his GPL crowd. We dont hate microsoft and will use it.

Oh and it is quite amusing to see you blindly follow the advice of others without making up your own opinion. Csh sucks because a website told me so! Perhaps if you where not such a sheep you would have your own opinion. Who cares about programming in the shells anyways? Other than 3 line scripts where i use sh if i want something complex i can write it in java, c, c++ or perl as needed.

If anyone is out to convert it is you who keeps posting unhelpful crap in the BSD forums seeing as you dont even use it.

Last edited by Stack; 05-12-2004 at 10:58 AM.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 06:10 PM   #36
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If you're implying I'm a Stallmaniac, *that* is amusing.

Look, dude - I was just expressing some friendly curiosity about BSD. And this is what I get. I *keep* posting 'unhelpful crap'? This is my 5th frigging post in this forum out of 2570 posts in 15 months. Unhelpful? I was the one asking the frigging question. Of course it's not *helpful*. How many people have *you* helped here?

And I'm blindly following the advice of others? I use bash and zsh and have no *interest* in the frigging csh. I wasn't looking to use it and I'm not looking to use it. The dude was asking a question about it and I was being - what? Oh! HELPFUL.

What would you rather I do? Say, "I've never used it. But I've come across this link before. But I won't post it because then Stack will think I'm a 'blind follower'. No - I think I'll post the frigging link!

Now let me help YOU and say you'll be a lot more useful if you stick to helping people with their BSD problems and questions and not attacking Linux users or their choice of *operating system* for god's sake.

Now say whatever you want but I don't do flamewars this stupid - I've had a couple of arguments with Strike and a Quanta developer but at least that was *about* something. So, later.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 07:26 PM   #37
apache363
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Stack: I agree with much of what you said.
digiot: Believe me, I can see your point of view too. However, I can also see how Stack might have misinterpreted your earlier statements to be somewhat hostile. Just try to be careful about what you say, and you don't have to blow your top over Stack's response.
Both BSD and Linux are excellent choices for OSes.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 07:52 PM   #38
vectordrake
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Stack "cuts to the chase" when discussing things. Some take it as sarcasm. I think he misinterpreted digiots response. I think digiot misread Stack. Hopefully this is all. Perhaps I have misread both, but I'm glad that both have contributed to this thread.

Sometimes, I read past posts from certain members when they have said something that has caught my interest. You both have a lot more knowledge than I on either OS. Please keep stimulating my dendrites.

And Apache363! How do you constantly come up with the questions? Does it tire you? Have you considered a career in journalism? I think you'd shine. You're tenacious!

I have used csh in FreBSD, btw. Found it to be okay for entering commands. I don't program and my editing is usually done with jed. I don't think it matters which shell I use to fire up jed with.
 
Old 05-12-2004, 08:10 PM   #39
apache363
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Thanks for the compliment!
I'm not of the age at which I need to (and can't, really) choose my career , but when that time does come, I will definitely take your advice into consideration!

Last edited by apache363; 05-12-2004 at 08:12 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 02:47 AM   #40
chort
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Stack and digiot, both of you need to tone it down a little. You're welcome to disagree respectfully, but let's lay off the personal insults. Stack, you keep ending up in these entanglements some how. Please choose your words carefully.

To answer digiot, yes BSD users do tend to think poorly of Linux, but mostly because of Linux advocates & users, not because of the kernel itself, necessarily. Most BSD users see Linux advocates as loud and generally pretty crazy. BSD users also tend to take a dim view of the chaotic and amature way GPL code gets flung around.

Yes, much GPL code (particularly for the kernel--actually, almost exclusively for the kernel) comes from professional coders at outfits like IBM, etc but a majority of the utilities come from relative newbies and the kernel itself is quite a mess in many places. I've read more than one book where the authors comment that the kernel is poorly commented and it's often unclear why things are they way they are.

In relation to that, the design philosophies are very different. The *BSDs generally believe in "benevolent dictatorship" as the best development model, and contributions and additions are generally tightly controlled. Linux (and it's many community distributions), on the other hand, seem to take contributions from just anyone off the street and there's very little auditing that happens and almost no centralized or formal management to speak of.

Another aspect of *BSD is that there is generally very little advocacy. Either you use BSD and you like it, or you don't use it. Now with the popularity of FreeBSD and quite a number of Linux users switching, the FreeBSD community is a little more vocal than it used to be, but the NetBSD and OpenBSD crowd very rarely say anything. The most publicity you'll see is when Theo De Raadt is making fun of Cisco for their software flaws and recommending that other vendors follow OpenBSD's examples (note that he doesn't say everyone should use OpenBSD, he says other vendors should copy his solutions).

That's probably why you have a perception that *BSDs do a poor job of brining in converts. It's because they don't care for Linux much, and they don't actually try to make converts.

Oh, one last observation if I may... Stack had an interesting point about Linux users hating Microsoft, but BSD users will use Windows... While I don't think BSD users operate Windows that much (given a choice), they certainly don't hate Microsoft in the seemingly religious way that Linux users do (face it, RMS boarders on a religious cult leader), they are generally open to using other OSs when required. There are a lot more BSD users that are sysadmins at sites (while Linux users tend to be hobbiests) and so BSD users generally tend to use proprietary Unices and Windows as well. Linux users (as a broad generalization) seem to think that everything should be run on Linux and anything less is herecy.
 
Old 05-13-2004, 05:27 PM   #41
apache363
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Thank you, chort, for clearing that issue up.
Why are BSD users more open to proprietary software than Linux users?
 
Old 05-13-2004, 05:40 PM   #42
vectordrake
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Both questions answered
 
Old 05-13-2004, 10:47 PM   #43
chort
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vectordrake, I don't really see how that's answering any of the questions that were asked...

apache363, it's because, as a broad generalization, BSD users appreciate that operating systems are tools, not religions. They use whatever tool works best for the job. Some times it's not BSD. Linux users tend to think you'll burn in hell if you ever say Linux is not the best at something.
 
Old 05-14-2004, 06:33 AM   #44
apache363
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Oh, I see! Basically, Linux is more of a "cult" than BSD...right?
 
Old 05-14-2004, 07:43 AM   #45
vectordrake
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Quote:
Originally posted by chort
.......as a broad generalization, BSD users appreciate that operating systems are tools, not religions...... Linux users tend to think you'll burn in hell if you ever say Linux is not the best at something.
My post was a link to the bibles of these religions. If you know the licences, you know another reason why one has an apeal to some and another has an apeal to others. What better way to see what spawns a lot of this than to look at the licences that each follows. I know that *BSD uses GPLed code and Linux uses some *BSD code and they both tell you that you've "tainted" your pristine OS with the other's philosophy, but most "battles" usually boil down to philosophy. If you get in a discussion about BSD vs Linux, the oh so holy licencing issue will come up.

I know, Chort, that my answer may not have spelled out exactly, in a step by step manner what some writer believes to be why BSDer have been percieved to be more open-minded, but I did give the opportunity to read and draw one's own conclusion as to what the differences really are, besides a kernel, package manager, and some system calls.



Of course, there is another reason that one can deduce from all of this as well. Linux gets a whole lot of press and its super active in development. There are many distros that have super easy installers. Because of this, anyone who is getting tired of spending money on software that doesn't suit their needs, may switch from Microsoft's offerings to Linux. BSDs aren't in the limelight and neither of the *BSDs really have any vocal advocates that are "in your face" like the Linuxes. With a more scary-looking installer, FreeBSD (and its harder-to-install cousins), get passed by.

Sure, there are opinionated *BSDers (lots of them), but I think the newbie, know-nothing loudmouths are Linux fans because its percieved to be easier to install and its in fashion at the moment.
 
  


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