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Old 11-13-2011, 04:03 AM   #1
Doc CPU
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Synaptic decides on its own not to upgrade packages


Hi there,

every other week or so I find something strange when I open Synaptic package manager on my Ubuntu 10.10 (maverick). Without my wanting so, Synaptic seems to decide randomly to withhold and not update some packages.

Today, for instance, I found that Synaptic had decided to lock cups-pdf and xulrunner to the currently installed version; a few days ago it was apache2. When I find that, I mark the packages manually for updating, and Synaptic does so without complaining. And next week, it's the same with some other package.
I don't see any pattern as to when and why this happens, or which packages are picked for the trick.

Anyone ever had that? What is it that makes Synaptic withhold certain updates for no apparent reason?
I'm confused about that, and have been for months.

Thanks in advance for your hints.

[X] Doc CPU
 
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:38 AM   #2
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http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/de...e/ch02.en.html
 
Old 11-13-2011, 09:48 AM   #3
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Um... That's not an amazingly helpful link, amani... Unless the answer is actually in there and you can point us to it :P otherwise, it's just a massively long document, which doesn't seem to mention the issue.

I'm afraid, Doc, I can't find any reference to your problem on the internet. Have you considered switching to a different distribution? Or even just upgrading to a more recent version of Ubuntu.

Last edited by Snark1994; 11-13-2011 at 09:50 AM.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:01 AM   #4
Doc CPU
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by amani View Post
I quickly scanned that manual chapter and couldn't find anything that seems to be related to my problem.
But maybe I missed an important detail, so please be more specific.

[X] Doc CPU
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #5
Doc CPU
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark1994 View Post
Um... That's not an amazingly helpful link, amani... Unless the answer is actually in there and you can point us to it :P otherwise, it's just a massively long document, which doesn't seem to mention the issue.
exactly what I thought. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark1994 View Post
I'm afraid, Doc, I can't find any reference to your problem on the internet.
Neither could I. That's why I'm asking here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark1994 View Post
Have you considered switching to a different distribution? Or even just upgrading to a more recent version of Ubuntu.
For my desktop system I'm quite happy with Ubuntu and don't want to change to another distro (bearing in mind that it takes weeks to get a different system running and properly customized), though for special purposes I'm also using and experimenting with other distros: Gentoo for my server, Tiny Core or Puppy for small embedded systems. And reading about all the trouble Ubuntu 11.x seems to cause, I'm not very keen on upgrading the base system.

After all, as I seem to be the only one having this problem, it's certainly not a general Ubuntu or Synaptic issue. On the other hand, I didn't change Synaptic's default settings, other than adding repositories for Opera, VirtualBox and cc65.

Thanks anyway for you suggestions.

[X] Doc CPU
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:20 AM   #6
snowday
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Try updating from the command line, as you'll get detailed output that may shed light on the discrepancy. (Copy & paste the output back here.)

Code:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:49 AM   #7
David the H.
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No, you're not the only one. I've seen it too.

The packaging system uses some kind of internal algorithm for comparing package dependencies and handling conflicts, and sometimes the order in which packages get updated is important.

This likely gets very complex when there are dozens/hundreds of packages being updated at the same time. My guess is that there are occasionally ordering conflicts that it just can't process automatically, and so it simply drops those from the automatic update. But when you reduce the problem to just one or a few packages, it's able to resolve the dependencies cleanly.

Since I don't update my system very often, the number of packages involved when I do is usually very large. From experience I've learned not to depend on it doing everything correctly on its own, and so now I break it up into multiple smaller updates, so that I can monitor what it's trying to do more carefully. It cuts down on major surprises.
 
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Old 11-13-2011, 11:14 AM   #8
Doc CPU
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by David the H. View Post
No, you're not the only one. I've seen it too.

The packaging system uses some kind of internal algorithm for comparing package dependencies and handling conflicts, and sometimes the order in which packages get updated is important.

This likely gets very complex when there are dozens/hundreds of packages being updated at the same time. My guess is that there are occasionally ordering conflicts that it just can't process automatically, and so it simply drops those from the automatic update. But when you reduce the problem to just one or a few packages, it's able to resolve the dependencies cleanly.
so you're saying that this is not the way it's intended to work, but given the fact that no system is fault-free, that's normal in a way? Like people don't intend to get ill, but it's normal that they do once in a while?

After all, your explanation makes sense to me, although I run updates every four to six weeks and there's rarely more than a dozen packages that need updating. And once I know about that flaw, I don't mind handling it manually.
But you know, whenever something doesn't work the way I expect, or for example my car is making noises it isn't supposed to, I'm concerned about it. As soon as I know the reason, and I know I can't fix it but it's harmless, I can live with it. And that's probably what I'm going to do about this issue, too.

@snowpine:
I ran an apt-get update and examined the output, and there was nothing I considered suspicious, although I don't know why some lines appear more than once:
Code:
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security Release.gpg
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main Translation-en   
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/main Translation-en_US
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/multiverse Translation-en
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/multiverse Translation-en_US
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/restricted Translation-en
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/restricted Translation-en_US
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/universe Translation-en
Ign http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-security/universe Translation-en_US
Get:1 http://extras.ubuntu.com maverick Release.gpg [72B]                      
Ign http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/main Translation-en              
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security Release                       
Ign http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/main Translation-en_US           
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick Release.gpg                          
Hit http://extras.ubuntu.com maverick Release                                  
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/main Translation-en          
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/main Translation-en_US       
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/multiverse Translation-en    
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/multiverse Translation-en_US 
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/restricted Translation-en    
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/restricted Translation-en_US 
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/universe Translation-en      
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick/universe Translation-en_US   
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates Release.gpg                  
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main Translation-en  
Hit http://deb.opera.com stable Release.gpg                                    
Ign http://deb.opera.com/opera/ stable/non-free Translation-en                 
Hit http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable Release.gpg                           
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net/ stable/contrib Translation-en               
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net/ stable/contrib Translation-en_US            
Hit http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable Release                               
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/main Translation-en_US
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/multiverse Translation-en
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/multiverse Translation-en_US
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/restricted Translation-en
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/restricted Translation-en_US
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/universe Translation-en
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/main Sources                  
Hit http://download.virtualbox.org maverick Release.gpg                        
Ign http://deb.opera.com/opera/ stable/non-free Translation-en_US              
Hit http://extras.ubuntu.com maverick/main Sources                             
Hit http://deb.opera.com stable Release                                        
Ign http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ maverick-updates/universe Translation-en_US
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick Release                              
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib Sources                       
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/restricted Sources            
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/universe Sources              
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/multiverse Sources            
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/main i386 Packages            
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/restricted i386 Packages      
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/universe i386 Packages        
Hit http://security.ubuntu.com maverick-security/multiverse i386 Packages      
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates Release                      
Hit http://extras.ubuntu.com maverick/main i386 Packages                       
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib i386 Packages                 
Ign http://deb.opera.com stable/non-free i386 Packages                         
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib Sources                       
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/main Sources               
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/restricted Sources                   
Ign http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib i386 Packages                 
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/universe Sources                     
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/multiverse Sources                   
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/main i386 Packages                   
Hit http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib Sources                       
Ign http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian/ maverick/contrib Translation-en
Ign http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian/ maverick/contrib Translation-en_US
Ign http://deb.opera.com stable/non-free i386 Packages               
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/restricted i386 Packages   
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/universe i386 Packages               
Hit http://debian.trikaliotis.net stable/contrib i386 Packages                 
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick/multiverse i386 Packages             
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/main Sources       
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/restricted Sources 
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/universe Sources   
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/multiverse Sources 
Hit http://deb.opera.com stable/non-free i386 Packages               
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/main i386 Packages 
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/restricted i386 Packages
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/universe i386 Packages
Hit http://download.virtualbox.org maverick Release
Hit http://de.archive.ubuntu.com maverick-updates/multiverse i386 Packages
Hit http://download.virtualbox.org maverick/contrib i386 Packages
Fetched 72B in 0s (81B/s)
Reading package lists... Done
However, I won't run dist-upgrade blindly since a distro upgrade is exactly what I don't want. I always want to see every single package that is about to be updated, and I want to be asked for it - just the way it works with the automatic update-manager.

[X] Doc CPU
 
Old 11-13-2011, 11:29 AM   #9
snowday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc CPU View Post
@snowpine:
However, I won't run dist-upgrade blindly since a distro upgrade is exactly what I don't want. I always want to see every single package that is about to be updated, and I want to be asked for it - just the way it works with the automatic update-manager.
I prefer dist-upgrade vs. GUI tools like Synaptic/Upgrade manager, because the output is more verbose & helpful. I don't know why you call command-line method "blind." In fact apt-get will list every available update and then ask you "Yes/No." You answer "No," then copy & paste the terminal output here and we all take a look. It is a forum-friendly alternative to taking lots of screenshots of Synaptic. Your call.

(edit) You can also use "apt-get -s" flag which will "s"imulate an upgrade for diagnostic purposes.

Last edited by snowday; 11-13-2011 at 11:32 AM.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 12:06 PM   #10
Doc CPU
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowpine View Post
I prefer dist-upgrade vs. GUI tools like Synaptic/Upgrade manager, because the output is more verbose & helpful. I don't know why you call command-line method "blind."
you misunderstood me. In fact, I do prefer command-line to GUI solutions. But only if I know exactly what they do. A GUI approach like Synaptic as a frontend to apt-get is usually more hassle to work with, but often offers information more clearly and with less user interaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowpine View Post
In fact apt-get will list every available update and then ask you "Yes/No."
(edit) You can also use "apt-get -s" flag which will "s"imulate an upgrade for diagnostic purposes.
There you go! *That's* what I was talking about when I used the word "blindly". I didn't know if I'd have a chance to intervene once I started the process, and I wasn't going to risk that. I do anything to avoid involuntary changes to my system configuration. Difficult in Windows, a bit easier in Ubuntu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowpine View Post
You answer "No," then copy & paste the terminal output here and we all take a look. It is a forum-friendly alternative to taking lots of screenshots of Synaptic.
I fully agree to that.
Here's the output of apt-get -s dist-upgrade. It's a very short one: ;-)
Code:
root@works:/# apt-get -s dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
root@works:/#
But as I mentioned before, I think David the H. explained the phenomenon sufficiently.

[X] Doc CPU
 
Old 11-13-2011, 12:14 PM   #11
snowday
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Excellent! Next time you have a discrepancy in Synaptic you'll have an additional diagnostic tool at your command.

By the way people sometimes get confused about "upgrade" vs. "dist-upgrade" I know I was at first. It sounds like dist-upgrade might upgrade you to the latest 11.10 or whatever, but actually that's called "release upgrade." In fact the difference between "upgrade" vs. "dist-upgrade" is that the former will not add/remove any packages, such as a kernel upgrade (each kernel version is a separate package which is why you can have multiple options in GRUB), whereas a dist-upgrade will. You can think of them as "safe" and "full" upgrades if you like, or even use the -s flag and compare the difference, next time you have upgrades available of course. It might even give you a clue as to the Synaptic behavior.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:16 PM   #12
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You always get the option to continue or not in apt-get.

You get exactly the same information you get from Synaptic on upgrades as you do in apt-get.

You can always interrupt a process in apt-get by hitting Ctrl+c.

You can also use Ctrl+d to exit the terminal (or tab as the case may be). This does not leave an "exit" command in your history so that you have to wade past it to get to your last "real" commands.

I do not know if you have ever looked at the Edit>Preferences>General tab in Synaptic. If you check all the boxes EXCEPT the bottom one, you will have a lot more information from it than you do now, including the ability to scroll back through the install process to see what errors there may have been.

Unlike the real terminal once that window is closed it is gone for ever so if you want to look at it do it right then.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 03:06 PM   #13
Doc CPU
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by widget View Post
You always get the option to continue or not in apt-get.
You get exactly the same information you get from Synaptic on upgrades as you do in apt-get.
yes, that's fine - but I didn't know until today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by widget View Post
You can always interrupt a process in apt-get by hitting Ctrl+c.
But then it might already be too late - that was my concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by widget View Post
I do not know if you have ever looked at the Edit>Preferences>General tab in Synaptic. If you check all the boxes EXCEPT the bottom one, you will have a lot more information from it than you do now, including the ability to scroll back through the install process to see what errors there may have been.
I haven't merely looked at those settings, I considered for every single one of them if I could agree with the default. And yes, I have the check marks as you describe them, except I also removed the check mark at "Clicking on the status icon marks the most likely action", because I don't want Synaptic to guess what I'm gonna do.

Anyway, that last block of your quote was clearly a plea *for* Synaptic, whereas initially you seemed to defend the command line approach. ;-)

[X] Doc CPU
 
Old 11-13-2011, 05:39 PM   #14
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In terminal you have the choice before running the upgrades as to whether you want to or not. This is the same as in synaptic.

In either case, if the process is interrupted it will not finish any of it. It will have to be started over other than the downloading of packages.

In Synaptic you have no graceful way to do this other than kill synaptic.

In the terminal you could do that too but Ctrl+c is less traumatic on the system.

The option in Synaptic to give the most likely option does not mean you have to follow it. It is handy in case of a broken package.

I like Synaptic as a gui. If you need a gui that is the one to use.

I prefer apt-get as my main package management tool. Aptitude comes second. Then synaptic which I really like to use to look at what is available and what is and what is not installed. Apt-get and aptitude will do those things too but synaptic is easier on my eyes for those jobs. For every thing else it is easier to get information from either of the others.

If synaptic, for instance, will not install a package you really get no info of use in getting it installed. "aptitude why-not <package>" will give you that information.

I really like aptitude for the very special commands that only it has that make life so much easier. I only use it a bit but that bit is just great.

Apt-get is the real work horse for me. The -s option of simulating an install, for instance. when you are not sure of something is a stress saver.
 
Old 11-19-2011, 01:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc CPU View Post

I quickly scanned that manual chapter and couldn't find anything that seems to be related to my problem.
But maybe I missed an important detail, so please be more specific.

[X] Doc CPU
I thought the apt manual would be there.


The apt-get manual says:
"New versions of currently installed packages that
cannot be upgraded without changing the install status of another package will be
left at their current version. An update must be performed first so that apt-get
knows that new versions of packages are available."

It can happen that apt-get disallows package X to be upgraded but Synaptic permits it. This has happened for example with kernels in *buntu.

read
man apt_preferences

and how to change policy.

...It is ALL there


But it can be improved by using the actual dependency tree.
 
  


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