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Old 04-17-2012, 11:07 AM   #121
ruario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
It has been very heart warming to see how users have responded and reached into their pockets to contribute. Renews one's faith in their fellow man.
Yep, it reminds me a little of when there were problems with cardinal.lizella.net. Whilst not an official Slackware owned machine, it provided hosting and other services for many sites associated with the wider Slackware community (e.g. slackbook.org, slackpkg.org, sbopkg.org, rlworkman.net, alienBOB's wiki, etc.).

That time Robby eventually asked for a little help and the response was so good that they actually got enough for an even better server than they had planned, plus a "substantial" amount of money left over to send to PatV as a donation. What this showed me was that when projects are small it doesn't take too much effort to rectify things when funding is an issue, assuming you have plenty of loyal fans.

This also further demonstrates why I can't see Slackware failing any time soon. Its costs are minimal comparative to the number of people who will rush to help out if there is a problem. Comparing the situation with Mandriva as happened in the distrowatch thread is therefore comparing apples and oranges. Sure Mandriva also has plenty of fans but its overheads are orders of magnitude more.
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:16 AM   #122
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruario View Post
...I work for a company that produces "free as in beer" software and often write the blog posts accompanying our development releases. I have often noticed that if we don't put out a new development snapshot at least once a week some of our users start to think the sky is falling and development has come to a complete halt, when in reality we pretty much never stop...
It wasn't always free. I've been using it since it all fit on a single 1.44 meg. 3 1/2" floppy disk and paid for it several times. I still have and use the "mouse gestures" mouse pad that came along with one purchase.
BTW, thanks for the direct link to your builds for Slackware. Greatly appreciated. (Not too happy with 11.62 and have re-installed 11.61. Not every release can be perfect )



Quote:
Originally Posted by ruario View Post
P.S. AlienBOB has stated that he and the other contributors don't get any money from the Slackware donations. That said, he does a great to maintaining Slackware64, offering non-official binary packages, giving advice to users, and teaching us all how to make zoervleis . So if after donating to Slackware you have a little more money burning a hole in your pocket I noticed he has a PayPal donate button on his blog. If might be that Roberto F. Batista (aka PiterPunk), Robby Workman, Stuart Winter and the rest of the contributors take donations as well but I didn't notice any PayPal links on their respective pages. Ah well, never mind and also I'm not made of money! :P
Great idea!
 
Old 04-17-2012, 12:14 PM   #123
vtel57
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I posted this addendum to my blog article:

Quote:
I’m beginning to regret writing this article and starting that thread at LinuxQuestions.org. For crissakes, people! This wasn’t meant to set off a shit storm. Initially, I was only concerned that the Slackware website had been down for a few days. Eric Hameleers (Alien Bob) responded to my query regarding the outage with a comment that, I must admit, did get me worrying a bit. Eric has explained the situation further in the comments on this article. Please read what he had to say.

I don’t worry about Slackware going anywhere anytime soon. There are too many of us loyal to this venerable GNU/Linux distribution to let that happen, I believe. My article here was written only for the purpose of possibly assisting the Slackware Project and Patrick Volkerding in continuing to do what’s been done for 19 years… keeping us all Slacking, baby!

This article wasn’t meant to incite rock and bottle throwing. GNU/Linux is ALL of us. I don’t care if you run Gentoo, Debian, Mandriva, or some barely known distribution on your systems. The fact is we are ALL GNU/Linux users. We ALL are part of this vast community that pulls together in times of need and helps out one another. GNU/Linux, FOSS, OpenRespect, etc.; that is US, folks.

I see that a few folks have dropped a buck or two in the Slackware tip jar. That’s excellent. Many of us have been using Slackware for years or have benefited from something that came about because of Patrick Volkerding and the Slackware Project. I have NO REGRETS if that tip jar fills some as a result of this article. I will have many regrets should the current shit storms at LinuxQuestions.org or Distrowatch continue.

Later…

~Eric
https://noctslackv1.wordpress.com/20...eds-your-help/

Please, folks... let's handle this in the spirit intended. Help out with a buck or two if you want to, but let's not beat each other up over differences of opinion regarding what distributions we like or don't like.

Later...

~Eric
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:17 PM   #124
vtel57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruario View Post
AlienBOB has stated that he and the other contributors don't get any money from the Slackware donations. That said, he does a great to maintaining Slackware64, offering non-official binary packages, giving advice to users, and teaching us all how to make zoervleis . So if after donating to Slackware you have a little more money burning a hole in your pocket I noticed he has a PayPal donate button on his blog. If might be that Roberto F. Batista (aka PiterPunk), Robby Workman, Stuart Winter and the rest of the contributors take donations as well but I didn't notice any PayPal links on their respective pages. Ah well, never mind and also I'm not made of money! :P
ABSOLUTELY! I am with you 110% on this!
 
Old 04-17-2012, 01:37 PM   #125
caitlyn
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I actually find the responses to me (other than the one on DistroWatch by Alien Bob) heartening. It certainly puts the Slackware community in a much better light. I'm pleased to be at least partly proven wrong in this case. Thank you to those who understood where I was coming from. Yes, we were very much aware that until KDE 4.8.2 was pushed that Slackware development had been very slow and very sparse and that plus the blog post (which I originally saw on Tuxmachines.org) caused the five of us doing a derivative to have significant concerns. It wasn't just me.

It would be much, much easier in the short term to finish our custom bits and pieces and to release what we've done. In the long term I still honestly don't know if that's the best way to go. I will be one vote in five as discussions are continuing. Do I have influence? Yes. Do I decide? Heck no.

There is a misconception about my writing which came up in the comments, this time in a very respectful way. I don't want Slackware to be anything other than Slackware. I also don't doubt that most Slackers who run vanilla Slackware don't want what's in the derivatives. If they did they'd run derivatives. My comments about automated dependency checking are not about what the Slackware community or developers want. They are about what the rest of the Linux community wants and expects from a distro. Slackware is different and there is nothing wrong with that.

When I write for O'Reilly the Slackware community, or those contemplating Slackware, are my target audience if I'm writing a How-To (i.e.: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2012/04...lems-with.html ) If I'm writing a review you aren't my target audience at all. You know what Slackware is. My target audience are folks who don't know Slackware and want to know how it compares to what they are used to. I judge my audience based on my experience both in my *nix consulting work and in the comments I receive in various places. I think most of you are more than smart enough to know that Slackware isn't for most people.

Sadly, I do take Alien Bob's comments seriously because of his role in Slackware. I agree with the previous poster who says they were very harsh. My general experience with criticism is that most developers of most distros take it as constructive or, in a case like Slackware, will concede differences in philosophy. The community, the fans, are where things are different. This is the first time a developer has reacted this way and I must say it doesn't make me feel better about Slackware. As others here have pointed out: website + development slowdown == legitimate worry. If Slackware was perfect for everyone there wouldn't be derivatives, would there? Pointing out differences, even being critical of them, isn't stupidity.

Again, I appreciate the responses this time around. In the next two or three days we (the Yarok developers) will have to make a decision one way or another. I, personally, would prefer moving on. Again, that is not a comment on the technical merits of Slackware, which are many.

Last edited by caitlyn; 04-17-2012 at 01:46 PM. Reason: leaving out "don't" was kind of a serious mistake :)
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:54 PM   #126
H_TeXMeX_H
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Well, I tried donating, but it seems my debit card doesn't work online. Oh well.
 
Old 04-17-2012, 01:55 PM   #127
Alien Bob
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C'mon, Caitlyn. You know better

Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlyn View Post
I actually find the responses to me (other than the one on DistroWatch by Alien Bob) heartening.

Sadly, I do take Alien Bob's comments seriously because of his role in Slackware. I agree with the previous poster who says they were very harsh. My general experience with criticism is that most developers of most distros take it as constructive or, in a case like Slackware, will concede differences in philosophy. The community, the fans, are where things are different. This is the first time a developer has reacted this way and I must say it doesn't make me feel better about Slackware. As others here have pointed out: website + development slowdown == legitimate worry. If Slackware was perfect for everyone there wouldn't be derivatives, would there? Pointing out differences, even being critical of them, isn't stupidity.
Please note that I did not name anyone in my comment on Distrowatch. Apparently you felt like it was needed to respond as if I were targeting you? But was I?

My target was not developers of derivative distros - I plainly stated that I welcome diversity. I have a good relationship with various developers of Slackware derivates - if those distros add something unique which Slackware proper does not offer I can only applaud their work.

What I acted upon is misinformation and half-truths. You get paid to write the stuff you write. If you inform your audience that "Slackware [...] in financial difficulty [...] We're already discussing about delaying the release and rebasing off of something with a more secure future" you are spreading misinformation which is insulting and even damaging to the group of people I work with. Your role as reporter within the written history of the Linux community puts extra value on your words. It is sad that you never even attempted to verify the information you used, while adding your own negative accents.

You claim you and I have never exchanged words. This is true. I wish you had, so that I could have given you first-hand information. The way it is now, your texts made you look less than professional.

Eric
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:08 PM   #128
caitlyn
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Eric, you are under a misconception. I do not get paid for most of my writing any more than you do. I certainly don't get paid for commenting on DistroWatch. (I do get paid if I write a feature article for Ladislav, of course.) The reason I'm on O'Reilly much less than in the past is that they used to pay in kind (a Safari subscription) but don't even do that anymore. I am not a paid journalist. That has never been my main line of work.

I took what was on a major Linux portal site and repeated it and voiced my concern in a Linux forum not unlike this one. That is the sum total of what I did. If I had chosen to write an article for O'Reilly then I would have most certainly reached out to Patrick as I did in the past. I don't, personally, put a lot of weight on forum comments. I do put more weight on something picked up by a Linux news site, hence my reaction. You clearly put a lot of weight on forum comments made by me. Fair enough.

Tell you what: how about I write that article for O'Reilly now, complete with factual information? Would that help? Feel free to e-mail me at the address published at http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2654 if you want to add anything or clarify anything.
 
Old 04-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #129
caitlyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob;4655290If you inform your audience that "[I
Slackware [...] in financial difficulty [...] We're already discussing about delaying the release and rebasing off of something with a more secure future[/I]" you are spreading misinformation which is insulting and even damaging to the group of people I work with.
Certainly no insult was intended. I still don't see it that way. What I described the Yarok developers as doing is certainly accurate. Not being able to keep the website up does imply a cash flow problem at the very least and I'll point out that you were my source of information for that tidbit, albeit indirectly via TuxMachines.org and a blog post. So, while I don't want to argue or belabor the point, I still don't see this as misinformation. I don't even see it as inaccurate in any way. Damaging? Perhaps. I can see that.

The offer in my previous post stands. I'll write an article and get it published. If you want to have input you can most certainly have it.
 
Old 04-17-2012, 02:22 PM   #130
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlyn View Post
Let me be clear: I know some of you hate me because I've dared write reviews that didn't praise Slackware from top to bottom.
This is not the way to win fans, Caitlyn.

Last edited by dugan; 04-17-2012 at 02:25 PM.
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:36 PM   #131
lotec25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlyn View Post
Certainly no insult was intended. I still don't see it that way. What I described the Yarok developers as doing is certainly accurate. Not being able to keep the website up does imply a cash flow problem at the very least and I'll point out that you were my source of information for that tidbit, albeit indirectly via TuxMachines.org and a blog post. So, while I don't want to argue or belabor the point, I still don't see this as misinformation. I don't even see it as inaccurate in any way. Damaging? Perhaps. I can see that.

The offer in my previous post stands. I'll write an article and get it published. If you want to have input you can most certainly have it.
i truly think we just want to see you move on. It also seams you are using this to get some light on your name and this Yarok project that you are working on. It has been said many times no one cares what you use for your project, you could fork what ever you want. The issue still stands you made remarks on a site, that Slackware was in financial difficulties, and you being a professional did not check, or even ask. So as I said it seams it is just a way to get your Name, and this Yarok project some light.
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #132
Alien Bob
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Caitlyn,

I think you confuse hate with offense. I doubt that many people hate you, but your words certainly have offended parts of your audience.

I don't mind giving feedback on articles in advance if that makes your articles more accurate on matters Slackware related. I will always react like I did on DistroWatch, if I find out after the fact that someone is spreading FUD. My comments were not aimed at you personally, although you were of course the personification of my target.

I am all in favour of openness. You will find that I try to be informative in all the articles I write, but also straight to the point, and with tooth and fang if that's required. You will find that you can have fruitful discussions with me if you are straightforward with me.

Eric
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:22 PM   #133
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlyn View Post
My general experience with criticism is that most developers of most distros take it as constructive or, in a case like Slackware, will concede differences in philosophy. The community, the fans, are where things are different. This is the first time a developer has reacted this way and I must say it doesn't make me feel better about Slackware.
Reacted "this way"? And what way was that, Caitlyn? There was absolutely nothing wrong with any of the responses you have received. You, on the other hand, have spent your time in this thread accusing people of being full of hate, accusing people of being motivated by blind zealotry ("hate me because I didn't praise Slackware from top to bottom"), accusing people of being unconstructive, and accusing people of putting words in your mouth when they accurately paraphrased what you said. No-one in this thread has done anything to deserve these. No-one in the Distrowatch thread has argued more pointedly than you have, and only you have posted inaccurate information. It is inaccurate information to say that Slackware is in such financial difficulties that it's in danger of going the way of Mandriva. That is exactly what you said, and I'm amazed that you already tried to lie your way out.

Your history of handling disagreements this way is exactly the reason I'm not a fan of yours.

Last edited by dugan; 04-17-2012 at 07:08 PM.
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #134
brianL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Well, I tried donating, but it seems my debit card doesn't work online. Oh well.
Some debit cards are acceptable, some aren't. I used to have a Maestro card that didn't work for subscriptions & donations to Slack, but my present Visa debit card does. I've also got a Paypal account.
 
Old 04-17-2012, 06:17 PM   #135
Woodsman
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Caitlyn,

I understand your project is vertically focused and wish you all the best. Should you and your team move to a different distro I am interested in seeing the Slackware GUI tools you folks developed for your project. Possibly post them as links where ever your online presence is finally established. I long have been interested in such non stock tools for Slackware. Should you and your team remain with Slackware as a base, I look forward to announcements and hopefully will find time to test your product.

Thanks much.
 
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