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Old 04-19-2017, 07:35 AM   #16
gmgf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audriusk View Post
It's more like somebody forgot to take their medication this morning.
Or exceeded the dose:
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:59 AM   #17
Spike8605
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Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
I almost have a feeling someone is trying to start something, going from post about trojans in systemd (like they wouldn't be noticed by someone) and now KDE in the Slackware subforum of all places. Of all places why here? Are the gods punishing us?

There is no reason for KDE to be dropped because of systemd. I bet a systemd shim would probably be adopted first unless the scope creep stopped and what is there is really good (stable and great functionality over what we have now).

binary logging and a too-big-to-handle system (from bootloader straight to login daemon)negatives will never be superseded by (few) objectvily good achievment... fast boot is unneeded in unix-like systems, since we are forced to reboot very very rarely.

i run a linux desktop, and a few months ago i tried the live of linux mint with systemd... sure is fast, like 10 times faster than slack.... but slack only require 50-60 seconds to boot, mint 5.. yet 45 seconds are too few to justify the rest of the mess, i only boot the system if a) i'm booting for the first time in that day b) switching from nouveau to nvidia and viceversa or c) dual boot (here the problem is the "fast" boot time of windows 7... something like 6-8 MINUTES to be ready to use)

the other advantages of systemd are really small things on the end-user's point of view, and NOTHING beats bsd init as far as kiss philosophy and flexibility goes... maybe openrc or runit could in the future substitute it, but for now (and in the past 10 years) i had no problem with "classical" inits.

hope the future will not push on us too many big changes, since i like the "if ain't broken don't fix it"

just to give an exemple i liked very much the way windows 98 booted, while i don't like the way vista/7 boot, they hide too much, you have too little control (if any)... i see systemd trying hard to do the same thing and that's bad... that and the whole rh conspiracy that i am seeing around the whole systemd/kdbus etc thing... [small ot] rh works with lotsa army/national things in the usa, and we all should know by now the bad things nsa and similar agency are pushing around... and at the same time microsoft joined the linux-fundation... yes i'm paranoid [/small ot]

one thing is certian, with that crap of a system they where able to hard-split the beautiful community the sprung around gnu/linux... that's already bad, no matter how many forks of project will keep our systems without systemd.... one big damage has already been done...
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:21 AM   #18
Didier Spaier
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Could a moderator either close this thread or move it elsewhere?
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:47 AM   #19
RadicalDreamer
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a4z, where are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike8605 View Post
binary logging and a too-big-to-handle system (from bootloader straight to login daemon)negatives will never be superseded by (few) objectvily good achievment... fast boot is unneeded in unix-like systems, since we are forced to reboot very very rarely.

i run a linux desktop, and a few months ago i tried the live of linux mint with systemd... sure is fast, like 10 times faster than slack.... but slack only require 50-60 seconds to boot, mint 5.. yet 45 seconds are too few to justify the rest of the mess, i only boot the system if a) i'm booting for the first time in that day b) switching from nouveau to nvidia and viceversa or c) dual boot (here the problem is the "fast" boot time of windows 7... something like 6-8 MINUTES to be ready to use)

the other advantages of systemd are really small things on the end-user's point of view, and NOTHING beats bsd init as far as kiss philosophy and flexibility goes... maybe openrc or runit could in the future substitute it, but for now (and in the past 10 years) i had no problem with "classical" inits.

hope the future will not push on us too many big changes, since i like the "if ain't broken don't fix it"

just to give an exemple i liked very much the way windows 98 booted, while i don't like the way vista/7 boot, they hide too much, you have too little control (if any)... i see systemd trying hard to do the same thing and that's bad... that and the whole rh conspiracy that i am seeing around the whole systemd/kdbus etc thing... [small ot] rh works with lotsa army/national things in the usa, and we all should know by now the bad things nsa and similar agency are pushing around... and at the same time microsoft joined the linux-fundation... yes i'm paranoid [/small ot]

one thing is certian, with that crap of a system they where able to hard-split the beautiful community the sprung around gnu/linux... that's already bad, no matter how many forks of project will keep our systems without systemd.... one big damage has already been done...
How do you feel about SeLinux? Is it doing anything nefarious? The source code can be read. Pretty much all projects can be compromised. I'm happy with bsd-init. Projects like KDE want specific standardization because according to them their login code is spaghetti trying to accommodate all these different programs. Systemd fits a need for them. A standard so they can do things one way. I don't care if the community is split. A desire for control is why Poettering is so popular. Other software will spring up that is BSD friendly. It is annoying that programs like udev had to be forked but the package provides functionality that is wanted and systemd is now the standard. The dependencies of KDE are met with Slackware without systemd so systemd is a nonissue.
 
Old 04-19-2017, 09:19 AM   #20
Spike8605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
a4z, where are you?
How do you feel about SeLinux? Is it doing anything nefarious?
no idea, I don't use that. afaik now it's fully community driven, so i *suppose* nsa dropped it... still i don't use it so i have not formed an idea on that.

Quote:
The source code can be read. Pretty much all projects can be compromised.
heartbeat showed just that... so the simpler are the projects, better it is to keep track of them... a big-blobby-multithing-code-mess its much more difficult to audit than a single login daemon or init system... well that's my opinion at least, and i'm nowhere near being a developer...

Quote:
I'm happy with bsd-init. Projects like KDE want specific standardization because according to them their login code is spaghetti trying to accommodate all these different programs. Systemd fits a need for them. A standard so they can do things one way.
I understand, and I'm not questioning innovation, or standardization... i'm questioning blobbiness, there's no need of one big mess that control from boot to login and more (and never likely will be needed in the future)
that's just asking for truble... a standard init a standard login daemon ecc ecc could be created still mantaining the good philosophy behind unix-like, one program that do ONE job perfectly, capable connecting through other programs in standard way... it is simple and it's much less prone to failures...

Quote:
I don't care if the community is split.
Yet this make linux communities smaller and smaller, which IMHO means weaker and weaker, in a moment where, what will happens in the next 5-10 years could decide what linux, as a s.o. will become...
as I've already stated, i'm paranoind and not ashamed to be one, so, to speak clearly, if rh/nsa/ecc would like to forkbomb the entire linux project aiming to leave us with less and less alternatives to protect ourselves and our privacy/security that's exactly one way to do that, without even have to get their hands dirty...

I think we are extremely OT though, so maybe it's better to stop pollutting this thread

Quote:
A desire for control is why Poettering is so popular. Other software will spring up that is BSD friendly. It is annoying that programs like udev had to be forked but the package provides functionality that is wanted and systemd is now the standard. The dependencies of KDE are met with Slackware without systemd so systemd is a nonissue.
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike8605 View Post
for now however, there seems to be no real concern, so i can sleep peacefully
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:31 AM   #21
orbea
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I'm just going to leave this here...

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:20 AM   #22
RadicalDreamer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike8605 View Post
I think we are extremely OT though, so maybe it's better to stop pollutting this thread
We will be waterboarded for our participation in this thread. People want to take on Microsoft. They might as well ditch all distros except for Android and ChromeOS to do that. Back one evil corporation against another. I think the acceptance of blobbiness is from a lack of competition and consensus. The blobbiness is fitting a need. The blob is taking care of the non-glamorous consensus part. The unix way is preferred but should a hammer of any make be able to hit whatever nail it comes in contact with without modification? According to KDE they have to fix the nails for each hammer and they are tired of doing it, tired of doing a hammers job, and blobbiness even though its not a unix like hammer it at least is just one hammer they have to worry about. I haven't looked at the code but from what I read from KDE's simplified explanation of their issues the modular approach regarding login isn't working for them.
 
Old 04-19-2017, 11:51 AM   #23
dugan
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On second thought, I have nothing to say that is on-topic.

Last edited by dugan; 04-19-2017 at 12:01 PM.
 
Old 04-19-2017, 12:00 PM   #24
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Not that my opinion counts for much, but I'd much prefer if this discussion focused on Plasma 5's inclusion in Slackware instead of turning into another systemd black hole.
 
Old 04-19-2017, 12:00 PM   #25
Spike8605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbea
I'm just going to leave this here...

https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644
ugh, what a bad reply from poettering.... that does indeed show a bad attitude... and a bit too much of ignorance from "the guru"... are we sure that his codes are... his? yeah yeah, i need medicine i know

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
We will be waterboarded for our participation in this thread. People want to take on Microsoft. They might as well ditch all distros except for Android and ChromeOS to do that. Back one evil corporation against another.
it's not a good scenario... and indeed it could happen... well, it could already have happened without us noticing it...
Android is already the nr 1 used linux worldwide... and i don't trust google either... sure, microsoft and google are clashing right now... then they will make a BIG alliance to wipe out everything else... they are big enough and important enough to be able to do it.... in a lot of years, so people will not notice the move, but only the result, when it will be late...

Quote:
I think the acceptance of blobbiness is from a lack of competition and consensus. The blobbiness is fitting a need. The blob is taking care of the non-glamorous consensus part. The unix way is preferred but should a hammer of any make be able to hit whatever nail it comes in contact with without modification? According to KDE they have to fix the nails for each hammer and they are tired of doing it, tired of doing a hammers job, and blobbiness even though its not a unix like hammer it at least is just one hammer they have to worry about. I haven't looked at the code but from what I read from KDE's simplified explanation of their issues the modular approach regarding login isn't working for them.
I don't know, i feel that if they would have created some kind of consortium (like freedesktop to give an idea) to decide how DE and WM should have "talked" to the system (like they did with polkit etc) they could have decided a way to create a standardized enviroment without the need of one huge blob....
however i'm not a developer, so, maybe, i'm oversimplifing the matter....
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:12 PM   #26
1337_powerslacker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Every time I boot up into a Slackware 14.2 with KDE 4.14 desktop I wish that I could install Plasma 5 instead. Compared to KDE 4, Plasma 5 desktop is faster, cleaner styled, more elegant. And by now, functionally superior.
It was the same going from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Some people wanted to stick with KDE 3 and thus Trinity Desktop was born. No idea if KDE 4 will go the same way, who knows. Bug judging by the fact that there has not been any development for KDE 4 in a long time, and nobody picked up the code and ran with it, I assume that Qt5 and Plasma 5 are the future.
Recently, I decided to dump the -current implementation of KDE 4.x, and try the new Plasma 5 environment, after reading your March post. Boy, am I glad I did! The looks are smoother, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of default icons on the taskbar (just the launcher icon and system tray icons), and nothing at all on the desktop proper. (Not to mention the default wallpaper is visually more stimulating!) After using it for a few days, I am bidding adieu to the past, and embracing the future.

Because sometimes, a new KDE version is well worth the "disruptive" effect it brings to the user. Not difficult to work around, and the benefits (at least in my book) greatly outweigh the migration difficulties.

Just my

Happy Slacking!

Last edited by 1337_powerslacker; 04-19-2017 at 12:18 PM.
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:48 PM   #27
glorsplitz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_powerslacker View Post
after reading your March post
you have link for that, I'm curious. Thanks
 
Old 04-19-2017, 03:30 PM   #28
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glorsplitz View Post
you have link for that, I'm curious. Thanks
http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/tag/kde5/
 
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:01 PM   #29
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
You really put the things right, Eric! That's not the KDE, anymore!

I really hope that Slackware would stay with KDE4 forever and would never touch that thing called Plasma5!

Long live KDE4! Burn in fire, ugly Plasma5!
Just out of curiosity, how representative is this of how the rest of the community feels?

Me? I have no opinion. I don't use KDE.

And if Darth_Vader's just trying to rile people up, I'd have him know that he has nothing on the guy who spent years crying about the move from KDE 3 to 4.

Last edited by dugan; 04-19-2017 at 04:19 PM.
 
Old 04-19-2017, 04:27 PM   #30
enine
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Did KDE put back in some of the stuff that got lost going from KDE 3 to 4/
 
  


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