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-   -   Why is Slackware's software so redundant? (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/why-is-slackware%27s-software-so-redundant-819650/)

agi93 07-13-2010 03:05 PM

Why is Slackware's software so redundant?
 
Slackware seems to have many tools for each task. With package management, there is pkgtool, command line scripts (installpkg, etc.), and slackpkg. There are many window managers, such as fluxbox, twm, blackbox, xfce and kde, and there are multiple applications for tasks like web browsing and email.

Why? Why is all of this included in the default install? Part of the reason texlive cannot replace tetex in the stock Slackware is size constraints. Removing some of this excess software would ameliorate that.

I am just wondering why there are so many options included in the default install when it would save plenty of space for Pat to pick one solution for each task and keep the rest in extra/. I personally do not use any of the provided window managers (except KDE occasionally); I go on slackbuilds.org and get XMonad. I do the same with my web browser, image viewer, and some other software. This is not a problem for me, but I'm still left with gigabytes of excess software. I could remove it, but with Slackware I like to have a full install, so I never run into problems with dependencies or lack a certain feature that is standard in Slackware. I trust the Slackware team's choice and organization of software for each release, so I try to follow recommendations whenever possible.

But why is all of this redundant software included?

H_TeXMeX_H 07-13-2010 03:15 PM

Well, some people call it 'redundancy', some call it 'choice'.

P.S. There's an option to choose what packages to install.

jedi_sith_fears 07-13-2010 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agi93 (Post 4032170)
I could remove it, but with Slackware I like to have a full install, so I never run into problems with dependencies or lack a certain feature that is standard in Slackware.

Err ... most probably they are still there and still maintained because people out there using it. Slackware is the oldest & most stable distro out there. Stable also means 'old' in many regards. And about browser, when last 13.1 was released, it had all latest. I just don't get you regarding that matter.

dugan 07-13-2010 03:16 PM

  1. The space taken up by the window managers and package managers (except maybe KDE) do not come close to the space taken up by TexLive
  2. Moving packages to /extra will not affect the space taken up by the distribution, as /extra is included on the installation DVD

agi93 07-13-2010 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugan (Post 4032184)
  1. The space taken up by the window managers and package managers (except maybe KDE) do not come close to the space taken up by TexLive
  2. Moving packages to /extra will not affect the space taken up by the distribution, as /extra is included on the installation DVD

Putting stuff in /extra prevents it from being installed during a full install unless the user decides to manually use those packages later.

I'm not really concerned about texlive or space on the disk. I don't mind getting that from Robby or SBo. I was just curious about why we have KDE AND XFCE AND fluxbox AND blackbox AND whatever else.

hajatvrc 07-13-2010 03:20 PM

Personally, I have a terabyte of space so I don't mind having four or five mail programs that take up half a megabyte each. I think that if the opposite was true, that I was using a 16GB solid state drive and therefore space was an issue, I would still use Slackware. I don't mind the thought process behind installing gigabytes of stuff and then using pkgtool to remove all the ones you don't want afterwords. It really lets you get acqainted with all the packages that ARE on your system.

The Arch Linux philosophy would lead to a ruddy mess of dependency issues in Slackware since we have no dependency resolution.

agi93 07-13-2010 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedi_sith_fears (Post 4032183)
Err ... most probably they are still there and still maintained because people out there using it. Slackware is the oldest & most stable distro out there. Stable also means 'old' in many regards. And about browser, when last 13.1 was released, it had all latest. I just don't get you regarding that matter.

I wasn't really talking about "old" software. I guess texmex might be right; it's all there for people to choose. I was thinking in more of a salix or ubuntu fashion of having a standardized single set of software for tasks (one program per task) and allowing users to install other stuff later.

dugan 07-13-2010 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agi93 (Post 4032190)
Putting stuff in /extra prevents it from being installed during a full install unless the user decides to manually use those packages later.

Which has nothing to do with TexLive being too large to include, as TexLive is too large to include on the installation DVD.

Reading over my last reply, I realized that I should have been more clear that my second point was in response to this:
Quote:

Part of the reason texlive cannot replace tetex in the stock Slackware is size constraints. Removing some of this excess software would ameliorate that.

it would save plenty of space for Pat to pick one solution for each task and keep the rest in extra/.

agi93 07-13-2010 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hajatvrc (Post 4032191)
Personally, I have a terabyte of space so I don't mind having four or five mail programs that take up half a megabyte each. I think that if the opposite was true, that I was using a 16GB solid state drive and therefore space was an issue, I would still use Slackware. I don't mind the thought process behind installing gigabytes of stuff and then using pkgtool to remove all the ones you don't want afterwords. It really lets you get acqainted with all the packages that ARE on your system.

The Arch Linux philosophy would lead to a ruddy mess of dependency issues in Slackware since we have no dependency resolution.

I guess I've been using Arch too much. I'm so used to only having the software I choose and use that I haven't adjusted to having some extra software yet.

The dependency thing is an important point. However, the same thing works with slackbuilds.org, where the dependencies are listed.

onebuck 07-13-2010 03:24 PM

Hi,

Each tool has special characteristics thus advantages. Some of the things mentioned do not take that much space. There are times I'll use 'pkgtool' instead of slackpkg:

Quote:

excerpt 'man pkgtool'
pkgtool - software package maintenance tool.

SYNOPSIS
pkgtool

pkgtool [ --sets #a#b#c# ] [ --source_mounted ] [ --ignore_tagfiles ] [ --tagfile tagfile ] [
--source_dir directory ] [ --target_dir directory ] [ --source_device device ]

DESCRIPTION
pkgtool is a menu-driven package maintenance tool provided with the Slackware Linux distribu-
tion. It allows the user to install, remove, or view software packages through an interactive
system. Pkgtool can also be used to re-run the menu-driven scripts normally executed at the
end of a Slackware installation. This is useful for doing basic reconfiguration (like changing
the mouse type).
Quote:

excerpt 'man slackpkg';
NAME
slackpkg - Automated tool for managing Slackware Linux packages

SYNOPSIS
slackpkg [OPTIONS] {install|remove|search|upgrade|reinstall|blacklist} {PATTERN|FILE}

slackpkg [OPTIONS] {generate-template|install-template|remove-template} TEMPLATENAME

slackpkg [OPTIONS] info PACKAGE

slackpkg [OPTIONS] update [gpg]

slackpkg [OPTIONS] {clean-system|upgrade-all|install-new}

slackpkg [OPTIONS] {new-config|check-updates}

DESCRIPTION
Slackpkg is a tool for those who want to easily install or upgrade packages via the network.
With slackpkg, you can have a minimal installation of Slackware Linux and install/upgrade only
those packages you need most.

You don't need to setup NFS or make dozens of CDs for all your computers; all you need to do is
to type one command and all of the latest official Slackware packages will be at your finger-
tips.

INSTRUCTIONS
Slackpkg has many features. It can search for specific files, remove all third-party packages
in your system, install packages added to Slackware since your last update, show package
lines 1-35
Sure sometimes it's just a habit to choose one over the other. But the tools are there for my usage and to make the choice. Just one example but I do want the choice that will enhance my use of Slackware.

I think the use of '/extra' as PV & Team tend to place certain things off the distribution installation is a wise one. Independent!

Slack On!
:hattip:

jedi_sith_fears 07-13-2010 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agi93 (Post 4032190)
Putting stuff in /extra prevents it from being installed during a full install unless the user decides to manually use those packages later.

I'm not really concerned about texlive or space on the disk. I don't mind getting that from Robby or SBo. I was just curious about why we have KDE AND XFCE AND fluxbox AND blackbox AND whatever else.

Simply because I use fluxbox, my brother uses blackbox, you like KDE and someone else likes XFCE. Its all about choices. If you are aware of the dependencies, you need not to install 'everything'. You can install in 'expert' and get as you like.

jedi_sith_fears 07-13-2010 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agi93 (Post 4032192)
I wasn't really talking about "old" software. I guess texmex might be right; it's all there for people to choose. I was thinking in more of a salix or ubuntu fashion of having a standardized single set of software for tasks (one program per task) and allowing users to install other stuff later.

Brother, if you are considering one program per task, and being installed default, I strongly disagree. It hampers our freedom of choice. It also disturbs FOSS.

agi93 07-13-2010 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedi_sith_fears (Post 4032197)
Simply because I use fluxbox, my brother uses blackbox, you like KDE and someone else likes XFCE. Its all about choices. If you are aware of the dependencies, you need not to install 'everything'. You can install in 'expert' and get as you like.

I see. This helps Slackware appeal to a wider audience by making it easier for someone to use what they like. It's for a greater good than myself :)

agi93 07-13-2010 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedi_sith_fears (Post 4032203)
Brother, if you are considering one program per task, and being installed default, I strongly disagree. It hampers our freedom of choice. It also disturbs FOSS.

When you put it that way, that philosophy does seem to remind me of Windows a lot. It doesn't seem right in open source.

Also, hajatvrc's point about the space usage being negligible makes sense. I only have 80GB devoted to Slackware, but about 17% of that is used currently. This "redundancy" doesn't seem to be a problem after all.

Lufbery 07-13-2010 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedi_sith_fears (Post 4032197)
Simply because I use fluxbox, my brother uses blackbox, you like KDE and someone else likes XFCE. Its all about choices.

More to the point: many people may be using the same computer. Don't forget that any GNU/Linux system is a multi-user system. For example, my wife and I share our main desktop computer. I'll sometimes drop into XFCE or Enlightenment just for fun, but none of that affects my wife's profile and her KDE setup.

Even cooler: I can be compiling software and doing a whole bunch of junk on the computer, and then simply switch over to an unused terminal so my wife can log in and do her work while mine continues in the background.

Regards,


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