Where have all the Kernels gone?

orbit · 09-08-2008, 11:57 PM

Hi All,
This is just a curiosity really ...
Around the end of Slackware 12.0, I noticed that the Slackware package repository had a big flurry of kernels/ modules/ headers/ source versions being released as pre-made packages (A convenience that I really enjoyed), but now it seems to have totally stalled at 2.6.24.5.
With the current kernel roaring ahead at kernel.org (at time of writing 2.6.26.5), does anyone know if there are plans to release a new official Slackware kernel set any time soon?

Cheers

Orbit

Bruce Hill · 09-09-2008, 12:38 AM

Now there are basically two kernels. The huge kernel contains about everything
built-in; and the generic kernel contains about everything built as a module.
They are also split into smp and non-smp. Check your /boot directory:

Code:

mingdao@silas:~$ ls -l /boot/
total 35488
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2346701 2008-08-10 18:28 2.6.26.2-initrd.gz
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root    root       37 2008-07-03 00:39 README.initrd -> /usr/doc/mkinitrd-1.3.2/README.initrd
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root    root       25 2008-08-29 21:01 System.map -> /boot/System.map-2.6.26.3
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   851162 2008-07-03 20:13 System.map-2.6.25.9
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   878411 2008-07-16 08:53 System.map-2.6.26
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   996876 2008-08-19 09:45 System.map-2.6.26.2
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   995953 2008-08-29 21:01 System.map-2.6.26.3
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   844024 2008-05-01 03:02 System.map-generic-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root   880187 2008-05-01 02:19 System.map-generic-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  1282875 2008-05-01 03:15 System.map-huge-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  1320655 2008-05-01 02:42 System.map-huge-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root      512 2008-07-04 01:07 boot.0800
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root      512 2008-07-04 01:07 boot.0810
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root      137 2008-07-03 00:47 boot_message.txt
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root    root       21 2008-08-19 09:46 config -> /boot/config-2.6.26.2
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    50914 2008-08-19 09:46 config-2.6.26.2
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    49946 2008-08-29 08:50 config-2.6.26.3
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    82369 2008-05-01 03:02 config-generic-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    82657 2008-05-01 02:19 config-generic-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    82208 2008-05-01 03:15 config-huge-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    82536 2008-05-01 02:39 config-huge-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root     5040 2008-04-01 15:39 diag1.img
drwxr-xr-x 10 root    root     4096 2008-08-29 06:12 initrd-tree/
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2145589 2008-08-29 06:12 initrd.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2346787 2008-08-10 17:22 initrd.gz.bak
-rw-------  1 root    root    35328 2008-08-29 21:02 map
-rw-r--r--  1 mingdao users  111864 2008-02-21 16:54 memtest86+-2.01.bin
-rw-r--r--  1 mingdao wheel   25463 2008-06-27 05:44 mkinitrd_command_generator.sh
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root    15754 2008-02-22 08:08 slack.bmp
lrwxrwxrwx  1 root    root       32 2008-07-04 00:57 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-generic-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  1845436 2008-07-03 20:13 vmlinuz-2.6.25.9
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  1885744 2008-07-16 08:54 vmlinuz-2.6.26
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2106928 2008-08-19 09:47 vmlinuz-2.6.26.2
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2103312 2008-08-29 21:02 vmlinuz-2.6.26.3
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2055544 2008-05-01 03:02 vmlinuz-generic-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  2167384 2008-05-01 02:19 vmlinuz-generic-smp-2.6.24.5-smp
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  4205208 2008-05-01 03:15 vmlinuz-huge-2.6.24.5
-rw-r--r--  1 root    root  4369880 2008-05-01 02:42 vmlinuz-huge-smp-2.6.24.5-smp

Ignore my custom kernels - you can't get those from Slackware. But the ones labeled
generic or huge are included, and should support any hardware in the 2.6.24.5 vanilla
Linux kernel.

I am not an official Slackware representative, but I can tell you unofficially
that there will probably not be another kernel, even in -current, until the
toolchain is upgraded.

Read the docs for Slackware-12.1, especially CHANGES_AND_HINTS.TXT, and you
will find out about the kernel changes.

lumak · 09-09-2008, 01:50 AM

I've been reading a lot about kernels recently and here is what I've found out.

There is no reason to update your kernel UNLESS:
- you update your OS to a new version
- your OS decides there is a security hole in the kernel they released
- you need the latest and greatest kernel or need to patch a kernel to provide a feature that would otherwise be missing (including tweaking ever so slightly).
- you want to optimize the kernel to your processor (most hardware support should be build as a module that will be auto detected and loaded at boot)

This in mind, it's just as efficient to tweak the kernel that's distributed with slackware by using the matching config file and altering what you want.

All that makes a lot of sense to me. If it aint broken, don't fix it.
Additionally, re installing nvidia drivers is a pain. There are also certain packages that you may build that will require kernel headers matching what you got installed and other intricacies. (no stock packages that I'm aware of).

I suppose the better question is... what's wrong with your current kernel?

Bruce Hill · 09-09-2008, 02:49 AM

The reasons you posted for updating your kernel are just someone's
opinions -- no need to debate them.

However, there is reason to address the two following statements:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumak

Additionally, re installing nvidia drivers is a pain.

Re-installing the Nvidia drivers is as easy as running as root:

Code:

sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-173.14.12-pkg1.run

and if, as you suggest, one were to rebuild the same kernel version:

Code:

sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-173.14.12-pkg1.run -K

will install a kernel module for the new kernel only, without
uninstalling the existing driver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumak

There are also certain packages that you may build that will require kernel headers matching what you got installed and other intricacies. (no stock packages that I'm aware of).

This statement must assume that you clobbered the kernel headers
from your original Slackware install. Follow my Kernel Rebuild Guide
to avoid such a mistake.

One can certainly (thousands do daily) rebuild one's kernel without
touching the previous headers. You haven't quoted where you did
that kernel reading, but Linux Kernel in a Nutshell is a great read.

gnashley · 09-09-2008, 03:12 AM

Very good advice there from lumak. orbit, you said it right "roaring ahead". If you study hat is ahppening with the recent kernel releases you'll see why PatV would hesitate to upgrade. Since 2.6.24, the patch for each micro version upgrade has been over 100,000 lines. The patches are around 10MB for each upgrade. So it is right to be very careful about upgrading with such large changes. I think PatV tries, when possible, to settle on a kernel version which is deemed to be stable. That means no 'rc' kernels. The most stable 2.6.24 right now should be 2.6.24.7. You might see PatV update to that version or the latest 2.6.24.x just before release of the next Slackware version. It would not be good or practical to upgrade to the latest-latest at the last moment. Since glibc is best built against the headers for the released kernel version using the release version of the kernel, last minute upgrades could break lots of things. This is still saying nothing about binutils or gcc.
To build a distro properly, one must consider the version of these four things all together: kernel, glibc, binutils and gcc. Simply choosing the latest version of each will almost never be the right choice.

keefaz · 09-09-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hill

-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1845436 2008-07-03 20:13 vmlinuz-2.6.25.9
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1885744 2008-07-16 08:54 vmlinuz-2.6.26
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2106928 2008-08-19 09:47 vmlinuz-2.6.26.2
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2103312 2008-08-29 21:02 vmlinuz-2.6.26.3

And I thought I was a Kernel junky!

H_TeXMeX_H · 09-09-2008, 05:14 AM

I agree with lumak, I strongly recommend that you do NOT upgrade kernel version unless you have a good reason to do so. I have upgraded the kernel version many times and almost every time, I've had to revert to the old version because of instability problems. Sometimes I got lucky and chose a good stable version of the kernel to work with my system, but this is rare, usually a kernel upgrade can lead to significant instability.

keefaz · 09-09-2008, 05:17 AM

Personal experience may vary, for my part I never got instability problem with new Kernels from "The latest stable version of the Linux kernel" series. YMMV

Bruce Hill · 09-09-2008, 06:17 AM

I first started running Slackware Linux in 2003. Since my early days,
kernel building fascinated me. What other OS let's you recompile the
kernel, and customize it for only your hardware?

My first build attempts were with Kwan Lowe's guide. It served me well.
Since then I've learned much more about rebuilding the kernel, especially
from the docs in the top level directory of the kernel source.

I have never once, not one time, had an unstable Linux kernel. Mind you,
I don't build from mm or some other testing branch. And the stable 2.6
branch has not released anything unstable yet.

IMO there is no reason to be scared of building a custom kernel. If you
follow my guide, or a similar one, and leave your default kernel alone,
and leave a link to boot it, you won't have problems. On the contrary,
you will learn a lot about Linux.

I'm not saying this about anyone that's posted so far in this thread,
but I think there is a lot of FUD spread about rebuilding the kernel,
just like there is FUD about putting LiLO in the MBR.

ErV · 09-09-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orbit

With the current kernel roaring ahead at kernel.org (at time of writing 2.6.26.5), does anyone know if there are plans to release a new official Slackware kernel set any time soon?

It's quite easy to upgrade your kernel yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumak

There is no reason to update your kernel UNLESS:
- you update your OS to a new version

I don't think that updating kernel is necessary when updating OS. You can update OS and keep old kernel, and it should work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumak

- you want to optimize the kernel to your processor (most hardware support should be build as a module that will be auto detected and loaded at boot)

Optimizing doesn't require update, you just need to reconfigure/recompile existing kernel.

And another reason to update kernel is that some software might require certain kernel versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Hill

there is FUD about putting LiLO in the MBR.

//offtopic
In many cases putting LILO (or any boot loader) in MBR is not necessary (but some people seem to love putting it into MBR for no reason). I don't remember a case when it was required to make system work. You can install it into beginning of partition and make partition active/bootable. This is more flexible and more useful with multiboot machines.

lumak · 09-09-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErV

//offtopic
In many cases putting LILO (or any boot loader) in MBR is not necessary (but some people seem to love putting it into MBR for no reason). I don't remember a case when it was required to make system work. You can install it into beginning of partition and make partition active/bootable. This is more flexible and more useful with multiboot machines.

//majorly offtopic
Actually, I had to install Lilo onto a MBR of a scsi drive so that my server would boot. (yes I even assigned that scsi to boot in the scsi bios and everything else was properly set)

BTW I love when messages are picked apart. That's awesome! I should be more informative as to what I mean... but anyway...

masonm · 09-09-2008, 01:08 PM

If the kernel works leave it alone.

Hangdog42 · 09-09-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masonm

If the kernel works leave it alone.

I'm not exactly sure why, but somehow this seems like heresy.

Franklin · 09-09-2008, 06:27 PM

I've not had much of an issue with kernel upgrades (outside of my own mistakes). I do only upgrade for hardware drivers - lately just improved wireless support. But laptop support in general seems to benefit from upgrading and recompiling. I don't think the stock slackware kernel is well tuned with respect to some laptop configurations. Once I have good config I save it, and think long and hard about new options present (or removed) in newer kernels.

I've learned a lot reading through the comments for all the options as well. It's something you should learn to do because you may need to one day. It's generally just a big pain in the ass though and why would you do it if you did not need to - or really want to.

forum1793 · 09-09-2008, 08:30 PM

I had to build a newer kernel due to new hardware and options that I wanted to work. For example, the 780g chipset is not recognized with less than a 2.6.25 kernel. But the stock kernel treated it like a 690g and it basically worked. Sound over HDMI didn't work until the 2.6.25+ kernel but I probably could have worked around it. I also upgrade hoping it will help with ATI drivers. It hasn't yet.

I goofed up a few times and forgot to compile in a file system or a pata driver but that is easily fixed. Overall I would recommend everyone try this as it will give you some feel for your hardware as well as the other capabilities of the system. Depending on your system I would be careful doing "make install" as I don't use LILO and find grub easier to recover with.

But this interests me and I'm not afraid of booting with a live-cd to make repairs. If you're not comfortable doing that or If you have no need then there is no reason to do it.