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Old 12-30-2009, 02:41 AM   #871
gapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigi View Post
I am finding it very difficult to understand the objectives of slackware, if not to become more popular?
The objectives of slackware, according to a vocal minority of its users, is to be a system perceived to be used by linux experts only, so they can consider themselves l33t h4x0rz just because they're using slackware. Luckily, the real objectives of slackware are completely different, a look at slackware.com is enough for anyone to understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigi View Post
The only difference I notice with Salix, is Gslapt included by default?
No. The difference with Salix is that it is designed to be compatible wit h Slackware, so that any Slackware user can get packages from the Salix repos instead of having to compile them himself. There are many other slackware based distributions out there that although they base their entire existence on slackware, they contribute absolutely nothing back to slackware. We think that by making sure that we stay compatible with slackware and offering our entire repository to slackware users would be our way of giving something back. Maybe we can even ease the transition of users to stock slackware, by providing them with an easier installation and some administration tools, until they get comfortable enough with the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigi View Post
What is the point of allowing so many spin offs - Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu etc etc etc.
No point other than the freedom allowed by the GPL. If you don't like them, don't use them.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 03:05 AM   #872
Nylex
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I'd like to see KsCD back, but that's not going to happen. What do people like for listening to CDs these days? I'm not really a fan of (g)xine. The newest version of Amarok lets you play audio CDs, I think, but I guess I'll have to wait for the next release of Slackware for that.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 03:49 AM   #873
gezley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brixtoncalling View Post
Woodsman is no iconoclast. He's making a perfectly reasonable suggestions on how Slackware could be better for everyone.
I understand your point, and Woodsman's, and without a doubt there is much to be said for it. But for me, this thread all boils down to one thing with Slackware - not how Slackware can be better, but how Slackware requires *us* the users to become better.

Slackware makes demands of me - it requires me to improve my Linux knowledge, and computing knowledge generally. For me this is its defining beauty. With Slackware I find myself having to jump in at the deep end and LEARN. As long as Slackware sticks to this philosophy and resists the urge to follow the Ubuntus and Fedoras along the primrose path to Bloat perdition then it will easily garner support and a wide user base. Gaining weight is not the best way to show off your features.

If users don't have the patience, intelligence, confidence or basic technical competence to do that then there really are excellent distros to do the hand-holding for them. I recommend Mandriva.

Last edited by gezley; 12-30-2009 at 03:51 AM.
 
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:18 AM   #874
samac
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I have to agree with Woodsman and the other "Enlightened (word used to deliberately provoke ire) Users". Just because I can code HTML in VI from memory does not mean that I want to, in fact I use WYSIWYG and then look over the code. I use Firefox rather than lynx, I spend half my time on the command line to manipulate files but also use dolphin. GUI programs, beautification and making things easier is not necessarily bad.

5,000 years ago everybody killed and butchered their own meat, some people still do (me for instance), yet this does not suit everybody so they go to the supermarket, the fact that I raise my own meat does not preclude me from occasionally going to the shops.

samac

Last edited by samac; 12-30-2009 at 05:35 AM.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 05:25 AM   #875
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
The objectives of slackware, according to a vocal minority of its users, is to be a system perceived to be used by linux experts only, so they can consider themselves l33t h4x0rz just because they're using slackware. Luckily, the real objectives of slackware are completely different, a look at slackware.com is enough for anyone to understand that.
I guess that I'm not part of that minority but this one;

Quote:
excerpt from 'Slackware.com';

What is Slackware Linux?

The Official Release of Slackware Linux by Patrick Volkerding is an advanced Linux operating system, designed with the twin goals of ease of use and stability as top priorities. Including the latest popular software while retaining a sense of tradition, providing simplicity and ease of use alongside flexibility and power, Slackware brings the best of all worlds to the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
No. The difference with Salix is that it is designed to be compatible wit h Slackware, so that any Slackware user can get packages from the Salix repos instead of having to compile them himself. There are many other slackware based distributions out there that although they base their entire existence on slackware, they contribute absolutely nothing back to slackware. We think that by making sure that we stay compatible with slackware and offering our entire repository to slackware users would be our way of giving something back. Maybe we can even ease the transition of users to stock slackware, by providing them with an easier installation and some administration tools, until they get comfortable enough with the system.

No point other than the freedom allowed by the GPL. If you don't like them, don't use them.
Now wait a minute here. You say that your distribution is based on Slackware but yet is separate from Slackware. Your justification is the availability of packages that remain compatible with Slackware. Might I state it another way; Salix is a fork of Slackware that has packages that are compatible with the Original Distribution Slackware. Your intent of Salix is to ease the installation for a user with hopes of migrating that same user to Slackware?

When does Salix become independent and not follow Slackware? Or is it just going to shadow Slackware or become parasitic?

 
Old 12-30-2009, 05:51 AM   #876
gapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Now wait a minute here. You say that your distribution is based on Slackware but yet is separate from Slackware. Your justification is the availability of packages that remain compatible with Slackware. Might I state it another way; Salix is a fork of Slackware that has packages that are compatible with the Original Distribution Slackware. Your intent of Salix is to ease the installation for a user with hopes of migrating that same user to Slackware?
No, Salix is not a fork of Slackware in any way. I have stated the main reasons we created Salix before in this same thread, I'm not going to do it over and over again. You're only making assumptions about our intent, please don't start twisting my words until you find something to bash me with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
When does Salix become independent and not follow Slackware?
I have also answered this one before in this very same thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Or is it just going to shadow Slackware or become parasitic?
There was always a criticism that there were too many slackware based distributions that did nothing to contribute back to slackware. We created a project that contributes back to slackware in a way that we think is worthwhile: by offering precompiled extra packages. And we are too being criticized for that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
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Old 12-30-2009, 06:21 AM   #877
vigi
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There are already a dozen software sources of compatible packages-the problem is they are all over the web insteady of on an official slackware site. Even two prime contributors R Walkman and Alen Bob have different sites.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 06:22 AM   #878
gauchao
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Quote:
The challenge is that many such people do not know how to compile software or build packages. Nor do they want to. They want the underlying design of Slackware and only want some simple graphical tools and the availability of precompiled packages.
Exactly, Woodsman,I agree with your statement, but why would these people use Slack instead of ubuntu or fedora? They have tons of distros to use; we only have Slack, perfect as it is, protected and maintained by PV and other very competent guys, and I wouldn't like to see it change because of the laziness and ignorance of the majority. Let them change, not us.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 09:06 AM   #879
Lufbery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
There was always a criticism that there were too many slackware based distributions that did nothing to contribute back to slackware. We created a project that contributes back to slackware in a way that we think is worthwhile: by offering precompiled extra packages. And we are too being criticized for that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
You're exactly right -- damned if you do and damned if you don't -- so don't get worked up about it. Salix looks pretty good and the repository will likely prove useful for both Salix and Slackware users. This is open source/FOSS; people can do what they wish with the code, and more power to them.

But this thread isn't really about Salix. What Salix does ultimately has little bearing on what Pat does with Slackware. This thread is about the features or changes that Slackware users would like to see.

To that end, here are a few points:
  • Woodsman offers some good constructive criticism and options for making Slackware friendlier for inexperienced users.
  • My opinion, though, is that the lack of a dependency checking-package manager ultimately will limit the average-user-friendliness of Slackware.
  • Which is fine. I don't want that kind of "ease of use" which is why I moved from Ubuntu and Suse to Slackware.
  • But, there is nothing wrong with Ubuntu and Suse. They're not perfect, but they're great distributions with vibrant communities, good support, and user-friendly interfaces. If Ubuntu can win over John Dvorak, then it's definitely worth checking out.
  • Slackware's "simplicity" and "ease of use" has more to do with transparency -- it is "simple" to edit a well-commented configuration file -- than with the "simplicity" of a graphical configuration tool.
  • Graphical configuration tools have the advantage of laying out options and information in an organized manner that can be understood at a glance, but these same tools often have only the most useful subset of a tool's functions. In short, command line interface is more powerful, graphical interface is often easier. For example, copying several different directories into a single new directory is easier, or at least a lot quicker, with Dolphin, Thunnar, or Konqueror than typing the equivalent actions with cp.
  • For other tasks, though, the command line tools are more powerful or simpler to use. Using lftp to grab and mirror a whole remote directory can be done with a single command, while using gftp to do the same thing is more complicated.
  • Pet peave: ncurses interfaces are graphical! Just because something doesn't use X, dosen't mean it's not graphical. Mc is a graphical file manager. Pkgtool is a graphical package manager.

What's the bottom line? I think that Slackware should remain a distribution geared more toward technical users and beginners who are willing to read the documentation and get their hands dirty. There are plenty of alternatives out there that do things differently. However, Woodsman is right in that sometimes a better/easier tool comes along that is worth a look, even if on the face of it, it goes against the "Slackware philosophy." A great example is Wicd. Who would ever have thought that a graphical wireless connection manager would have made it into Slackware!?!

Regards,
 
Old 12-30-2009, 09:12 AM   #880
Ivshti
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Not everyone has the time and the knowage to use Slackware, so don't attack the Ubuntu/Fedora/other easy distros users.

Also, criticism of distributions because they are Slackware-based is totally useless and the worst thing of the Slackware community. Most Slackware-based distributions provide Slackware packages of the software included in them.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 09:28 AM   #881
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
No, Salix is not a fork of Slackware in any way. I have stated the main reasons we created Salix before in this same thread, I'm not going to do it over and over again. You're only making assumptions about our intent, please don't start twisting my words until you find something to bash me with.



I have also answered this one before in this very same thread.
No one is twisting your words. I asked legitimate questions that you did not answer to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
There was always a criticism that there were too many slackware based distributions that did nothing to contribute back to slackware. We created a project that contributes back to slackware in a way that we think is worthwhile: by offering precompiled extra packages. And we are too being criticized for that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
No one is damning you, I asked question that should be answered. I wasn't being critical so don't spin it!

I just asked as too your justification being 'extra' packages for Slackware users or for ease of installation for a 'Slackware' clone for a new user? If the former then why not use a existing repository? I believe my queries are valid and not criticizing nor attacking.

For the latter I've looked at the 'SalixOS' site and much of what you say is posted there. But my questions are still not answered?

I'll download the 'ISO' and check it out.

As I will repeat again since you don't want to address my direct questions then assumptions will be made by me and others that may read this thread. Just address the queries. As for bashing or twisting someones words, not happening. Opinions and questions maybe but no bash/twist!

 
Old 12-30-2009, 11:34 AM   #882
hitest
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by gapan View Post
The objectives of slackware, according to a vocal minority of its users, is to be a system perceived to be used by linux experts only, so they can consider themselves l33t h4x0rz just because they're using slackware. Luckily, the real objectives of slackware are completely different, a look at slackware.com is enough for anyone to understand that.
I've been able to agree with a lot of your posts, gapan. But, not this post. I am not certain what you hope to accomplish by mocking Slackware users.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 11:38 AM   #883
Nylex
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This thread has managed to deviate quite a bit from the original question :/.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 12:09 PM   #884
hitest
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nylex View Post
This thread has managed to deviate quite a bit from the original question :/.
Agreed. This thread needs to get back on track. So what things do we want to see in the next release of Slackware (13.1)? At the moment I am very happy with the present development pathway. I don't have a lot of requests for change.
KDE 4.3.4 is a real winner in -current, I am certain that Slackers will enjoy the performance boost that comes with 4.3.4. Also, Thunderbird 3.0 in -current is amazing. I am looking forward to a new version of XFce when it is released and is added to -current.

Last edited by hitest; 12-30-2009 at 12:12 PM.
 
Old 12-30-2009, 12:11 PM   #885
gapan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
I asked legitimate questions that you did not answer to me.
But as I have told you already, I have answered your questions in previous posts in this same thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
If the former then why not use a existing repository?
Now that's a new question. The answer is that there was no repository with the package quality we wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
I've been able to agree with a lot of your posts, gapan. But, not this post. I am not certain what you hope to accomplish by mocking Slackware users.
I'm not mocking Slackware users. I am stating that this is a minority. There are other distributions where this minority becomes a majority and that is just tragic. In general, I despise people that follow the "I use X, therefore I'm better than everyone who uses Y" mentality.
 
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