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Old 07-12-2012, 04:14 PM   #31
astrogeek
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Being an opti-pessimist, I am always optimistic that things, especially people, will follow the worst possible chain of choices.

I have adopted a kind of survivalist attitude in recent years, and that has extended to my software archives as well.

Beginning with Slackware 12.1 I have maintained my own archive of everything from kernel and toolchain, to the distro, SBo and sources to all things that I build myself. When I update anything in my boxes I update the archive and keep (usually) good notes. The idea being that if I had to continue my own essential computing uses in the event of some catstrophe such as an unexpected SCO victory, Mickeysoft buying kernel.org and releasing it binary only, or complete loss of internet access - I would have a good chance of surviving it at a known level of function, at least for a while.

Recently I have been constructing a similar archive for 13.37 - fully tested as I upgrade a few boxes here. I definitely have in mind systemd, UEFI and various other incarnations of evil lurking and slouching across the landscape.

In the event that we suddenly find ourselves with no way forward, something I find increasingly likely, as long as I have hardware I will be able to maintain my own level of use for essentially an indefinite period.

Call me crazy, but Burt Gummer was smarter than we give him credit for!

Last edited by astrogeek; 07-12-2012 at 04:17 PM.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:53 PM   #32
55020
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I saw this the other day and it made me laugh my socks off. [source]

Quote:
Knowing nothing about systemd, I have had to piece together some init files for use on Mageia2.
One of those files is an init file for gogoc_client.
I ended up with a shell script called from systemd.
The shell script ( /usr/local/bin/gogoc.sh) is straight froward.
So what happens when systemd meets real world users? sysvinit gets reinvented
 
Old 07-12-2012, 07:05 PM   #33
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There's an old saying, "If it's ain't broke, don't fix it." SystemD is trying to repair a working system that isn't broken at all.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 08:45 PM   #34
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed that systemd gets crushed under the weight of its own ambitions. Or the ego of its creator.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 09:55 PM   #35
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Ambition based projects often crumble under the weight of too much change too fast, because few projects are willing to continually rewrite code to support new systems that aren't tried and true.

I just realized that Lennart Poeterring is the same author of PulseAudio, which is probably the worst audio management services ever created for Linux systems.

I still can't believe he was quoted as stating that Debian kFreeBSD was a "toy OS". Seems very hard to take someone seriously when they scoff at projects regardless of size trying to bridge gaps and open new doors.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 07-12-2012 at 10:08 PM.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:08 PM   #36
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
Ambition based projects often crumble under the weight of too much change too fast, because few projects are willing to continually rewrite code to support new systems that aren't tried and true. The utools (udev, upower, udisks, etc.) have been in development for quite some time to replace the aged hald system. Even now, hald still hasn't been effectively replaced. Projects still use it for functionality. The same will go with the utools when systemd is publicized. The problem then is you have multiple redundant systems all trying to do the same thing, and it's not a good mix for the system because eventually some part of the system is going to get too many resource requests at once and suddenly all hell breaks loose when the system resource managers can't decide which subsystem is asking for what because a diskdrive's resources were requested by three different services just for one program by the same service.

If hald and udisks are asking for a disk drive's resources and then systemd asks for the same resource, which resource is going to be given the task? Do you send the resource through systemd, udisks, or hald for the same program?
Even if Fedora uses it for themselves, Redhat is still more conservative. They only chose what they like from Fedora. As long as Redhat doesnt adopt it I think we should be OK. Imagine if Redhat adopted every craziness from Fedora. Have you ever tried Fedora Desktop? I find Fedora like a Clown distro, no offense. I tried it one time and i prefered ubuntu over it. It totally clogged up my system maybe due to my hardware though. But its nature its just trying new stuff. Its kind of like a geunie pig for Redhat.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:21 PM   #37
ReaperX7
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I wonder if since udev is merged into systemd, what are the emerging aspects of the devtmpfs system that have been added into the linux-next kernel projects?
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:25 PM   #38
narz
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Can someone give me a rundown on what makes systemd so terrible? Or for that matter what it's supposed to replace? Linux seems like it got a lot more messy and complicated since HAL, like it's been in a constant limbo of deprecations and replacements.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:57 PM   #39
ReaperX7
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Here's a question you should ask...

How much control should an administrator have over the system, and how much control should they give up?

Go back to Page 1 and read AlienBOB's response and read this link he posted regarding udisks2. Also, go read this interview with systemd's developer. The point of systemd is to isolate, segregate, and eliminate any ties Linux has from traditional UNIX style systems like BSD and such.

Don't believe it? Read this article/interview with systemd's developer Lennart Poeterring.

http://linuxfr.org/nodes/86687/comments/1249943

He basically says things like BSD isn't even a relevant system anymore, Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS, and that other distributions choices to keep their signature initialization systems are pathetic and ill conceived, and everyone should be following his design.

He even commented on Slackware's choice to not run Gnome as "Oh God".

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ay/000014.html

I really hate to say it, but someone really needs stand up to these so-called Linux developers and tell them, Linux is not Windows so stop trying to turn it into Windows.

Highly surprised Linus Travolds hasn't said anything about this mess yet.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 07-12-2012 at 11:18 PM.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:30 PM   #40
wildwizard
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Lennart Poeterring is easily described with only one word.

Arrogant.

Look it up and then look at his postings and you'll see a perfect match.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 11:46 PM   #41
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
Here's a question you should ask...

How much control should an administrator have over the system, and how much control should they give up?

Go back to Page 1 and read AlienBOB's response and read this link he posted regarding udisks2. Also, go read this interview with systemd's developer. The point of systemd is to isolate, segregate, and eliminate any ties Linux has from traditional UNIX style systems like BSD and such.

Don't believe it? Read this article/interview with systemd's developer Lennart Poeterring.

http://linuxfr.org/nodes/86687/comments/1249943

He basically says things like BSD isn't even a relevant system anymore, Debian kFreeBSD is a toy OS, and that other distributions choices to keep their signature initialization systems are pathetic and ill conceived, and everyone should be following his design.

He even commented on Slackware's choice to not run Gnome as "Oh God".

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ay/000014.html

I really hate to say it, but someone really needs stand up to these so-called Linux developers and tell them, Linux is not Windows so stop trying to turn it into Windows.

Highly surprised Linus Travolds hasn't said anything about this mess yet.
Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyMLi8QF6sw
 
Old 07-13-2012, 12:15 AM   #42
ReaperX7
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From that video he seems to be thinking his software can directly mimic the speed, user-friendliness, zero-administration, and core functionality of Windows upon the Linux kernel.

Sorry, but Linux and Windows are two different operating systems and systemd isn't about free choice and freedom of administration of the system. It's about controlled automation and a lack of core principles of system security.

I'm beginning to think we'd be better off gathering up some independent developers, or developers from other Linux systems, grabbing the hal, udisks, upower, and udev sources we still have and redeveloping a cross-platform INIT system that can be not only invisible to the system, but completely modular with full control of the system if so desired, works on BSD, Linux, and various other UNIX and UNIX-like operating system kernels and distributions, before Red Hat and Lennart completely destroy Linux and the various OS distributions that use it, and turn it into something it's not and set back Linux yet again as a viable OS alternative to Windows.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 07-13-2012 at 12:17 AM.
 
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:28 AM   #43
ruario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
Even if Fedora uses it for themselves, Redhat is still more conservative. They only chose what they like from Fedora. As long as Redhat doesnt adopt it I think we should be OK.
Of course they will adopt it! Lennart Poeterring works for Red Hat. His job is to create stuff like this for Red Hat. This is what they pay him to do. If they plan wasn't to adopt it, his manager would have had him working on something else.
 
Old 07-13-2012, 12:40 AM   #44
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
From that video he seems to be thinking his software can directly mimic the speed, user-friendliness, zero-administration, and core functionality of Windows upon the Linux kernel.

Sorry, but Linux and Windows are two different operating systems and systemd isn't about free choice and freedom of administration of the system. It's about controlled automation and a lack of core principles of system security.

I'm beginning to think we'd be better off gathering up some independent developers, or developers from other Linux systems, grabbing the hal, udisks, upower, and udev sources we still have and redeveloping a cross-platform INIT system that can be not only invisible to the system, but completely modular with full control of the system if so desired, works on BSD, Linux, and various other UNIX and UNIX-like operating system kernels and distributions, before Red Hat and Lennart completely destroy Linux and the various OS distributions that use it, and turn it into something it's not and set back Linux yet again as a viable OS alternative to Windows.
Yup, thats why all the questions that are asked his answer is "a patch". So he is planning on patching up all the deamons and a lot of other stuff to get it to work. He also talks about shell scripting being slow so converting to C program... So now u have to know C to config? LOL

Last edited by Mercury305; 07-13-2012 at 12:48 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2012, 01:00 AM   #45
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
I just realized that Lennart Poeterring is the same author of PulseAudio, which is probably the worst audio management services ever created for Linux systems.

I still can't believe he was quoted as stating that Debian kFreeBSD was a "toy OS". Seems very hard to take someone seriously when they scoff at projects regardless of size trying to bridge gaps and open new doors.
"BSD isn't relevant anymore." (the same Lennart Poettering)
 
  


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