Swinging SlackHammer in a different direction...
 

Some of the more adventurous among you are already aware of using NetBSD's pkgsrc as a replacement for the Slackware packaging system. Well I'm going to suggest an alternative method which directly reverses the process.

Instead of installing Slackware and then stripping it down to install the pkgsrc system, I suggest the alternative of doing the exact reverse. Installing DragonflyBSD with a minimal set of packages, and then building a Slackware system on top of Dragonfly. That way you'll have the Hammer filesystem fully deployed in it's natural environment using the Dragonfly cluster kernel and all that comes with it, while still maintaining your familiar Slackware environment. You wouldn't notice any difference in your system. The only thing that would be different, is the kernel. And since the kernel essentially functions in the background without any user interaction other than to load modules, it really won't matter to you.

So then you can have the Hammer filesystem immediately, while using things like slapt-get or slackpkg for package management. All of your SlackBuilds would work just as they did before.

Enjoy the challenge!
And let the games begin...
Shingoshi

EDIT: And if any of you appreciated this suggestion, please thank me to show how many have actually considered or are using it.

And how much Space is your dragonfly taking up Shingoshi?

and how many partitions does dragonfly require?

I don't have a system to install DragonflyBSD on...
 

I would suggest reading the details of the DragonflyBSD installation. One thing that's for certain here is that none of the other issues mentioned in the first thread about SlackHammer would apply here. And you'll have FULL R/W capabilities right from the start.

In fact, this would be so seamless that your system would show up as Slackware for package management. Only the boot process would tell you the system is DragonflyBSD. Other than that, you would never know anything's different.

Shingoshi

OK
I'm down with doing it in the morning
what Exactly do I gotta download and install?

do I gotta burn it to cd /dvd

or can it go on usb and install from there to hd?

I can do slack easy, just need help with DF cause I installed it once,long ago
and it made partitions I didn't want/need:)

I'll get the docs tonight too

I think you should start with a clean system...
 

First of all, go here:
http://www.dragonflybsd.org/download/
At least that was the idea of this. There were too many variables in trying to build Hammer on a Slackware system. But starting out with DragonflyBSD as the base will eliminate all of the previous issues.

Although, this might work as well:
http://www.nabble.com/New-instructio...d21550610.html
Hopefully that should help!
Shingoshi

Hi,

I think your definition concerning the kernel functionality is way off. :)

What gains will I get doing something like this just to get Hammer;

I wouldn't want to bastardize my Slackware just to get 'Hammer'.
Not a valid challenge.

So a big 'Thumbs Down' from me! :hattip:

You need to recognize the most important point of this...
 

We don't want anything more than the ability to boot DragonflyBSD. The only packages you'll need from DragonflyBSD to begin with, are those that give you decompression tools and network ability. There will be a few others. But you'll have access to them from the installation disk for DragonflyBSD. However, if you have the Slackware installation cd, you'll only need it to install your Slackware packages without a network. Start out by untarring pkgtools into your DragonflyBSD root directory. After that, you'll be able to install anything else you need.

Shingoshi

I have a feeling this will be a lot more difficult than you are making it sound.

The big advantage isn't just the Hammer filesystem...
 

The other main advantage is having a native cluster kernel. Linux doesn't yet provide that. And I don't know when it ever will. Dragonfly is dedicated to large enterprise systems. So for the majority of you, none of this matters. The point is for anyone who needs enterprise-level features immediately. And the Hammer filesystem is the foundation of that.

So if you don't like it, who cares? I happen to be one of the many who are anxiously awaiting a stable replacement for openMosix. DragonflyBSD will be that replacement.

Shingoshi

If you have NO experience with installing pkgsrc...
 

The inexperienced need not apply!
If you've never installed pkgsrc on Slackware, then there's no point in talking about it. You might NOT be qualified to consider doing something like this. But for those of us who have the experience, this is NO issue.

Shingoshi

I've been searching for something dependable for my spare box so I'll give it a shot.
Is there a link you can provide for any extra cuss words in case they are needed?:D

I read this and broke up laughing!!
 

Hey guys! Remember this. Use a clean system!
If you try installing this on anything other than a clean system, you're going to wind up with headaches. BIG headaches! And then don't come blaming me because of it. This is probably one of the only few cases where I definitely recommend having a CLEAN system.

Use a clean system!

Shingoshi

What about LinuxPMI? Plus, the native clustering for the DragonflyBSD kernel is still not complete or even functional. HammerFS is considered complete, but will doubtlessly find its way to Linux anyway if it's any good. Most good, open file systems do.

What you are proposing would (mostly) work, but you'd be essentially building from scratch a slackware-like BSD distro using the Dragonfly kernel . . . all of the slack builds would not work as-is; many compromises would have to be made along the way.

All that said, good luck! I hope you succeed.

Well, I spoke to soon.
This box I'm typing on is my main box and I had to take the video card out of my spare box for this one.
Oh well, I'll be watching this thread with interest to see how things pan out.

No video at all?
 

I don't know how a network install would go with DragonflyBSD. That might be a consideration. But probably not for someone who's never done that before.

I take that means you have no built-in onboard graphics. I hate having to scavenge parts from one system to another. So I know how that goes. You don't have an old pci graphics card laying around? I try to always keep some of those just for situations like this. Although, all of my newer boards have built-in graphics. Most of my boards are servers. Although I also have two Intel socket-775 boards with built-in graphics too.

But one thing that anyone reading this needs to know is, you need large disks to make this work. If you have old systems, stop reading this until you upgrade your components. As I said, DragonflyBSD is intended for enterprise systems. And most of you don't have anything close to that requirement.

Shingoshi

Do you have a system like this yourself, Shingoshi? Just wondering.

What benefits does the Hammer filesystem offer over native linux filesystems? I looked on wikipedia and on the website, but they list a bunch of facts, but I don't know what they mean, is it faster? Safer? Use less energy?

I'm also curious about this. Have you tried out your suggestion?

Answers that really weren't required...
 

vinegaroon:
1.) I have had a liquid-cooled quad-socket system with 1TB RAID1. I am now building another system to replace it. It'll be a phase-change chilled liquid-cooled build engine.

Romanus81:
2.) Hammer is intended to support the cluster infrastructure being built by DragonflyBSD. It is designed to scale into size dataset sizes that are almost astronomical. It offers new forms of redundancy across networks. But the truth is, if you don't understand any of this, there's really no point in pursuing it.

hitest:
3.) I already clearly stated I DON'T have a system to do this on. Currently, I'm spending all of my money on building my new system. The topic of Hammer was originally raised by another linuxquestions.org user. It was Tallship who suggested that another user try Hammer (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...83#post3626283). We considered another approach to doing this. I simply raised the suggestion of an alternative to facilitate this. But I also know that your point is that if I haven't done this myself, I shouldn't be making suggestions for anyone else to try it. That's irrelevant! My suggestion is for those who had already thought about doing this on their own. And you're obviously not one of those people. So I have nothing else to say about this to anyone who thinks they have the right to be critical or disapprove of the idea.

Shingoshi

I'm not being overly critical, Shingoshi. You are perhaps being a bit over-sensitive. The system suggestion probably has merit, but, we don't know if it works.
I'm asking a fair question that is relevant. It would be good for new users to know that the idea actually works before they alter a working system. In other words you build the system, explain how you did it, then call for testing and bug reports.
I can understand that you are saving your money for a new system. Maybe you could test the idea in a VM? If you don't want to run the system that is fine. I hope the system idea works out for you.

Haha... you think?! ;)

I wish ALL of YOU good luck. :)

Sensitivity justly due...
 

1.) The first time this topic was raised, Fred87 (Slamd64) came in with criticism of the very idea (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...61#post3628061). After that all discussion on this ended. This thread is intended to eliminate the original objections.
2.) How much more clear can I be. This is not a solution for the inexperienced. If you're a new user, you likely wouldn't even have the understanding, much less the skill to consider this.
3.) DragonflyBSD can best be described as an expert system. Novices DON'T use or install enterprise Linux systems.
4.) People who have run pkgsrc on Slackware DON'T need to be tutored through the steps to do this.
5.) You can't test Hammer in a VM. The R/W capabilities simply wouldn't work. This was suggested for the sake of having a FULLY-FUNCTIONAL Hammer filesystem, which presently DOES NOT exist on Linux.
6.) So this thread is simply for those who already have an interest in this. Why others feel the need to interject themselves here makes no sense. But I'm sure this won't be the end of it.

Shingoshi

My point was I don't see how can you say this will be no problem without having done it.

Cool... I guess, seems irrelevant to my question though.

Hi,

How are you going to eliminate objections? I feel you won't gain any ground until you prove that this will work as you hypothetically present. Fred had a valid argument;

You say that you are going to attempt modularity with the kernel. How? I reread your threads and posts on this subject and all I find is bloviating. Wording something doesn't make it happen. Matthew Dillon has no reason to try to implement on a GNU/Linux kernel. Compare the two, sure if Mr. Dillon would want to cross over from BSD to GNU/Linux it could possibly be implement within after major inclusion from the BSD kernel (which I don't think will happen). But me thinks that Dillon is not going to tarnish his rep in the BSD community by working on a Filesystem for GNU/Linux or even association. Then add in the differences in licenses your attempt will be futile not just restricting.

So you think exclusion of valid arguments to not do it are not worthy because you say so? Yes, your right there, it won't be the end of it. Much in the same way you tend to reply to others threads in that fashion. Until your proof that the use of the filesystem will work in the way you state to do it then those same people that you seem to belittle will continue to inject.

To attempt to do the inclusion will not work the way you present it ;

Do it then report back your success. I'm sure that the failure(s) would be easier to present back here. :)

What more were you looking for?
 

Hint: The argument is removed by not running a Linux kernel!
1.) I've already installed and run NetBSD pkgsrc on Slackware. Did that without any trouble. Reversing the procedure is no different. You simply need to select which of the original DragonflyBSD packages aren't needed on the new system which will be using the Slackware packaging tools, and remove them. And you don't have to replace all of them at once. But starting out with a minimal install of Dragonfly would be the best thing to do.

2.) And my point about hardware, is that I have the disk space to do this. The big problem for me here is that typically I've found that the BSD's require formatting which tends to dominate other procedures. And since the big payoff here is having Hammer, it doesn't make any sense doing it any other way. You simply cannot run Hammer with WRITE capabilities on anything other than the DragonflyBSD kernel. So what's your point? You certainly aren't offering any suggestions on how to go about this yourself.

And let's be real about this. Probably less than 5% of Slackware users run any sort of RAID system. But then that's true of most Linux users in general. And the same thing is true about their filesystems. Most users predominantly use ext3. They just can't see the point to doing anything differently. So what's the point in the continued discussion? I doubt very seriously that you had any desire whatsoever to do this yourself. If you had, you would have gone ahead and done it by now. Or at the very least said "cool, I think I'll try that! Someone else has read this thread and already decided to do just that. That was the only purpose of writing this thread. Not so I could debate with people who have no interest in doing anything than what they're familiar with.

The thing that is more likely the case is a desire to discredit or disprove any benefit from departing in any manner from what is the official Slackware system. Slackware users typically aren't even respectful of someone's desire to use slapt-get or src2pkg. Same mantra, same results. For a system that's supposed to be flexible enough to do whatever you want, it amazes me how often people complain to the point of sounding threatened or indignant, that someone else would choose another path. Instead what some of the adventurous are constantly faced with is this sort of communal mindset. Similar arguments would have been raised here if I had suggested to anyone to use NetBSD pkgsrc. The same "just can't see the point" argument would be raised as well.

So who cares! You don't think it will work. Who cares? You don't think it would be easy. Who cares? It's too much work. Who cares? Have I made my point yet? Who cares!!

No one needed to lead me by the hand through the steps of how to install NetBSD pkgsrc. Didn't need any help doing it. Didn't need any help installing and running Gentoo-AMD64 on my Slamd64 system in chroot. Didn't need any help figuring out that I could do a direct upgrade from Slackware to Slamd64. The same was later true for upgrading directly to Slackware64. I just went ahead and did it. And you're complaining that it might not work. That's ok. You probably haven't done half of the stuff that I've done. I'm confident in my abilities. I do something because I set my mind to doing it.

And frankly, I shouldn't have had to write any of this. For me, it's just a waste of time. I think I've made all the points I need to here. And there won't be anymore. The rest of you can keep coming back complaining about how you "just can't see the point!

Shingoshi

Hi,

Ouch!

Bloviating!

As I said 'Do It'. Don't try an lead someone else to jump of the barn. :hattip:

Oh crap, I didn't realise you were so 1337.

Seriously though, I'm definitely not saying this is pointless. I'll look forward to seeing your completed system.

Hopefully a 650 gig sata qualifies as a large disk.
I've been using nothing but Linux for the past 5 years.
Not a long time but long enough to know how to run the same systems you have run,,,, with no help.
Still, with the reading I have done this all is probably over my head.
As for being "adventurous", that's part of the fun of 'nix.
Still, this is the net.
Folks are going to put their 2 cents in no matter anyone's feelings on the subject.
Why care what someone else thinks,,,, it's your box dude.

:hattip: :D
I shall make no further comment, in case I get banned again.

I'm not even sure it has merit. If one was to run the DragonFly kernel and filesystem, then you wouldn't be able to use stuff that's tightly integrated with the linux kernel such as iptables, lvm, md-adm and all that stuff that makes linux linux. You could potentially port some of slackware's userspace packages over but they'd probably be available BSD native anyway. You could customise the Dragonfly startup scripts and suchlike to be more slackware like, but it would necessarily still be more Dragonfly than Slackware.

I really don't understand the point behind the suggestion. If you want to run Dragonfly and Hammer, then run them. I can see no value in attempting to make Dragonfly look like Slackware or use parts of slackware or it's application packages.

I was being kind, Gazl. I am a BSD user that is why I said it *probably* has merit rather than it *does* have merit. I just don't know. I'm with you; I am skeptical about this project. That is why we called for a working system. That is how it is done in the open source community, you build a new system, make an announcement, then invite replication and testing by your peers.
Agreed. I see no point to this system.
I've said my piece about this. I don't want to get in trouble.

Hi,

Hitest, I really don't think the mods are going to get you for presenting a valid argument. :)

I personally don't think this can be adapted to the GNU/Linux kernel from the BSD kernel without major inclusion from the BSD kernel. It's not as if you can just cut & paste from one to the other. :)

There is so much that would have to be re-written to adapt this. Possibly creation of the filesystem using GNU/Linux would be far easier but still for a enterprise need. Why? The mega-T drives are not going to be used by a general user of Slackware over multiple systems via mirroring. Plus if a enterprise user is wanting the cluster wide support that Hammer is to provide to the systems will require decent network bandwidth for your systems;

I agree the OP should work on getting something going instead of dream factoring something in hopes to seed someone else to go down the yellow brick road.

I'm no 1337 haxxor like Shingoshi, but this seems like another attempt by him to muck up and mongrelise Slackware.

Yep, I understood that. My reply wasn't really aimed at you hitest, that quote just seemed like a good jump-off point for what I wanted to say. On reflection, it would have probably been fairer not to drag you back into it by quoting you. Sorry.

Anyway, I've said my piece too so I won't post anything further on this either.

No need to apologize, Gazl. :)
Your comments allowed me to finish stating the rest of my argument.
Thanks for your feedback, onebuck. I'm glad that you think I wasn't being too harsh.

I skimmed over the thread and I didn't see anyone mention this (so I apologize if it has already been said): Shingoshi, wouldn't it make more sense to implement the Hammer filesystem for the Linux kernel natively, instead of doing backwards somersaults trying to make a Dragonfly and Slackware mix?

Too much work for nothing to be gained..
 

Your question was answered here: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...61#post3628061

There is NO working implementation of the Hammer filesystem for Linux. The current Hammer for Linux is READ ONLY. The person who wanted this initially, wanted WRITE capabilities as well. My suggestion was to simply short-circuit the previous plan by avoiding using the Linux kernel altogether. Essentially I've cut out the entire "switching back to Linux" from the previous plan. What you're left with is using the Dragonfly kernel as it should be. Because my objective in the future is to have a cluster-native kernel, which Dragonfly is developing.

I've waited on Linux for too long to implement clustering as a native feature. It could have been done years ago with openMosix. Instead, there are now numerous projects all headed in different directions. When Dragonfly succeeds in clustering their kernel, IT will become the standard against which all other systems are measured. I'm simply gambling on the likely and soon success of the Dragonfly project. My priority isn't to run a Linux kernel. My priority is to have clustering.

Running Slackware on top of the Dragonfly kernel would simply be another port of Slackware. Which I have dubbed as SlackHammer.

Shingoshi

Why don't you just run Dragonfly then, and skip the bastardization of Slackware altogether?
Seems like the simplest possible solution to whatever problem you are trying to solve...

[Edit: I'm not bashing, just ticked about the attitude of the OP. The OP may be right, or may be wrong. BUT THE ATTITUDE...]

Erm...correct me if I'm wrong....

1. You claim this works.
2. Nobody has the right to critical about this.

Ok... But

1. YOU HAVEN'T DONE THIS.
2. READ THE ABOVE

I think that's a huge hole in whatever passes for your logic.

All you're doing is repackaging a General Motors idea: SELL THE CAR. So what if we don't build it? All we want is the idea of the car...And money. While you aren't in it for the financial reasons, you DON'T HAVE A CAR TO SELL.

Using your logic, there is a magic OS that is developed, that pixies deliver, and NEVER CRASHES (And it's NOT M$Vista...). There. Now it exists. And I know it does..But I never installed or used it, but I know it works. Why? Because I said so.

You also cried in another, NAMELESS POST, about everybody bashing you for your views. I guess the entire community is wrong, and you're right, again.

Too bad. You're being criticized.

If you EVER wish to be taken seriously, ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING.
Take your own advice, and DO IT.

THEN tell us about it. And ask for our opinion. And, most of all, take our advise/views in a CONSTRUCTIVE way.

Until then, you will probably ONLY get critical comments.

BTW, anyone want the new OS?

Hi,

No, it wasn't answered by your post in another thread. Just more bloviating!

I think you will be waiting a longer time because of the way 'Hammer' relies on Dragonfly;

If you think a R/W 'Hammer' will work for the 'GNU/Linux' kernel then read on;

Shingoshi, the doors open for you to implement as you please. There's the challenge back at you to produce a working version for 'GNU/Linux'. Read the above referenced paper for 'Hammer', I have read these along with other information. You alone will not implement this for GNU/Linux. Why not just use 'UFS';

I don't expect you to get my reasoning for referencing the above quote. Most filesystems do perform better on their native OS not the same for implementations/ports.

Read the paper and come back with the operating filesystem for GNU/Linux. :hattip:

So, the idea is to port a Linux distribution to run on a kernel forked from FreeBSD. This is something similar: http://lwn.net/Articles/329556/ "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD". They are making a Debian distribution run on a FreeBSD kernel. GNU libc and lots of packages have been ported and the kernel is a FreeBSD kernel with a few patches. It's a good story to see how much work there is in this kind of project. Of course, it's now easier to do again.

Hi,

Good article!

Shingoshi, a look at the potential risk and time to be spent in doing what was suggested here;

As lightly stated a 'few packages';

There's that damn kernel issue(s) again;

I've spent all the time I'm going to spend on this issue.

Get this one point, not going to be done in the manner that you have been presenting.

Good Luck! :hattip:

Well, I think I now have the platform to do this with...
 

I had stripped down my main server recently. And since I'm going to need a cluster system as soon as it becomes available, I now have to consider changing that other system over.

My primary considerations going into this is that I have had the files on that old system's disks since 2004. That's a long continuity to break up for a new install with something that'll have to remove everything beforehand. The current disks from that old system are formatted with XFS on RAID1. I had just recently purchased two Western Digital 1TB drives and transferred my system root over to them. But presently, it's the only alternative I have now. So I guess I'll have a lot of housekeeping to do, transferring files from that machine to this one. Once that's done, I can proceed with the installation of DragonflyBSD.

Shingoshi

Thank you for an update. We'll keep our fingers crossed. If you need anything, do not hesitate to ask.

Are you serious!
 

Because you would be one of the few who has actually responded in a positive manner. But the fact is, I still have to prepare myself for removing a set of system files I've had functioning since 2004. I guess I just have to get over it and move on.

Shingoshi

I don't know what to say!

In tracing my history...
 

I've found that the system files of the machine I thought about installing Dragonfly on, dates back to 2001. One of my backup lilo.conf files is dated Dec.31.2001! I may find even older files than that (I have!). This system root may have been the first time I installed Slackware on any of my computers. I don't know, but that's quite a long history/legacy to abandon. I've been transferring the software for that system from one set of disks to another throughout all that time. So the continuity of that system has remained intact all along. I think I will wait until I get more new disks before doing the Dragonfly install.

History is History!
And it stands to my legacy as a Slackware user.

Shingoshi