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Old 02-27-2005, 01:46 PM   #31
sh1ft
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Quote:
Originally posted by gargamel
I agree, and use slackpkg already, occasionally. However, I need to use software that is not part of the official distribution. For the additional packages that I usually grab from LinuxPackages.net slackpkg is of no help, at the moment.

If support for non-official packages is added, slackpkg can become enormously valuable.

gargamel
This is a definate shortcoming. However, swarets support for repositories like linuxpackages.net is awful. I hate how you must uncomment the repos address in swaret.conf in order to download of it, but when upgrading packages it tries to upgrade official slackware packages from linuxpackages.net instead of official slackware mirrors.

If slackpkg were to implement some way to search for packages first from official slackware mirrors, then if the package was not found search repositories that would be a killer feature. Since slackpkg is really at its heart a simple bash script I suspect a feature like this would be fairly trivial for someone who is good at scripting to add.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 03:31 PM   #32
MykilX
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This whole "swaret sucks because of what happened on freshmeat" thing is getting very old. The guy who did these things is no longer a developer of swaret. LinuxSneaker has taken over and is doing a commendable job. swaret is not the be all end all of pkg management, nor is slapt-get for that matter.

Both tools (any automated tool really) can royaly screw up your system. Neither program does anything you don't tell it to. a package management tool is just that a tool. It not there to replace your brain.

I did screw up my system with swaret once. It wasn't swarets fault, it was my own. I could cop out and say swaret sucks it did this or that, but it's simply not true. Read the changelog, see if a package offers something that you need that your current package doesn't offer.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 03:57 PM   #33
SiegeX
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Quote:
slackpkg doesn't get this idea, and as the additional programs appear to work well, and the docs don't speak of a lot of dependencies, I wonder, why slapt-get wants to upgrade my system.
Id have to see what your slapt-getrc file looks like. Also, if you run 'slapt-get --upgrade --simulate' this will only output what it was going to do normally, and it also gives you the version numbers its going to upgrade to. Is this 10.1 system of yours a clean install of 10.1, or was it upgraded from 10.0? Also do you have your SOURCE= pointed to a -current mirror, or a 10.1 mirror?

Quote:
Both tools (any automated tool really) can royaly screw up your system. Neither program does anything you don't tell it to. a package management tool is just that a tool. It not there to replace your brain.
The point is HOW they do things, read my post again why using ldd is a bad thing for Official Slackware packages, it seems you just glazed over that part.

Quote:
Swaret and slapt-get seem too intrusive like they're trying to replace pkgtool when that is just not needed.
I can't speak for swaret, but as far as slapt-get is concerned, pkgtools is key to its functionality. I don't see how its trying to replace it when it highly depends on it.

Quote:
If slackpkg were to implement some way to search for packages first from official slackware mirrors, then if the package was not found search repositories that would be a killer feature.
To do this in slapt-get you simply add another SOURCE= line to your slapt-getrc file, so if you wanted to upgrade both official and linuxpackages.net at the same time you just need two SOURCE= lines, one for each. If you want to only do one at a time, you can do this as well, but this requires you to make a seperate slapt-getrc file, lets call it slapt-getrc_unofficial. Inside this new file you would put all the SOURCE= lines to unofficial mirrors. Now if you only want to upgrade unofficial packages but not official you run slapt-get --config slapt-getrc_unofficial.

Quote:
This whole "swaret sucks because of what happened on freshmeat" thing is getting very old. The guy who did these things is no longer a developer of swaret. LinuxSneaker has taken over and is doing a commendable job.
If you read my original post you'll see my point was "Swaret sucks because it uses ldd to do dependancy checking on a package system that was never meant for dependancies." What say you about that? This whole skirting my main point is getting very old.

Last edited by SiegeX; 02-27-2005 at 03:59 PM.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 04:28 PM   #34
gargamel
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Ok, this is my slapt-getrc. The reason that I have a SOURCE for 10.1 and another one for 10.0 is that I have some 10.0 packages installed. Eg, for Mozilla Firefox there's not yet a 10.1 package available. As Firefox has been updated to 1.0.1 I would like to use slapt-get (or some tool of this kind) to update the package on my system.

My system is a clean install, with the exception of /home, which exists since Slackware 9.1.



<snip>
# See /usr/doc/slapt-get-0.9.9h/example.slapt-getrc
# for example source entries and configuration hints.
WORKINGDIR=/var/slapt-get
EXCLUDE=kernel-.*,alsa-.*,lilo,.*-[0-9]dl$,devs,aaa_elflibs
SOURCE=ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-10.1/
SOURCE=http://software.jaos.org/slackpacks/10.1/
SOURCE=ftp://ftp3.linuxpackages.net/pub/Slackware-10.1/
SOURCE=ftp://ftp3.linuxpackages.net/pub/Slackware-10.0/
</snip>


Just for reading convenience, here's again the output I get from slapt-get 9.9h:


<snip>
# slapt-get --upgrade
Reading Package Lists... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libgnomecups psiconv lame
The following packages will be upgraded:
doxygen libcroco whois libmikmod getmail postfix libidn libgnomeprint pango
transfig xfig gv nmap imapd fvwm gnome-vfs glade libwmf libgsf gnumeric gaim
reiserfsprogs python flex checkinstall gnet t1lib gnome-icon-theme gftp
gnupg xfractint libmng blackbox abiword fluxbox sox php gtk-engines
38 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 78MB of archives.
After unpacking 53MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [y/N] N
</snip>


It may be ok, that slapt-get wants to upgrade postfix, as there is a 10.1 package available, now, I think, while the package I installed is for 10.0. But I don't understand why it wants to upgrade things like checkinstall, which I installed from /extra, and for which slackpkg doesn't find an upgraded package.

I really would like to know the thinking behind this behaviour. It may be correct and useful, but I currently don't understand it.

Thanks,

gargamel
 
Old 02-27-2005, 05:14 PM   #35
Makaelin
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Quote:
If you read my original post you'll see my point was "Swaret sucks because it uses ldd to do dependancy checking on a package system that was never meant for dependancies." What say you about that? This whole skirting my main point is getting very old.
Can't really say something sucks based on a feature that you can turn off by a simple change of the config file...
 
Old 02-27-2005, 05:21 PM   #36
SiegeX
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gargamel, the output of slapt-get --upgrade --simulate would be much more usefull to see why it wants to upgrade.

Quote:
Can't really say something sucks based on a feature that you can turn off by a simple change of the config file...
You can if that functionality is the core principal of the program/project. Out of all the people who own swaret, how many people do you think even know about that config option. And of those people who know about it, how many people do you think turn it off? Id venture a guess that one-tenth of one percent might have that option off.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 05:30 PM   #37
synaptical
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i've given up on package management in slack, and just install everything by hand. if you want package mgmt, why not use a distro that has superior package management tools designed specifically for it, like arch or debian? it seems silly to use a distro expecting it to offer something it doesn't while other distros have the functionality you want as a main feature (it seems silly to me, anyway ).
 
Old 02-27-2005, 05:42 PM   #38
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally posted by SiegeX
gargamel, the output of slapt-get --upgrade --simulate would be much more usefull to see why it wants to upgrade.

Sorry, you said that before. Here it is. To me it seems that slapt-get wants to replace official packages with packages from a slapt-get repository. Right?

Thanks again,

gargamel

<snip>
root@orion8:/home/alex/Finanzen/Steuer# slapt-get --upgrade --simulate
Reading Package Lists... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libgnomecups psiconv lame
The following packages will be upgraded:
doxygen libcroco whois libmikmod getmail postfix libidn libgnomeprint pango
transfig xfig gv nmap imapd fvwm gnome-vfs glade libwmf libgsf gnumeric gaim
reiserfsprogs python flex checkinstall gnet t1lib gnome-icon-theme gftp
gnupg xfractint libmng blackbox abiword fluxbox sox php gtk-engines
38 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 78MB of archives.
After unpacking 53MB of additional disk space will be used.
libgnomecups-0.1.14-i486-1ph is to be installed
psiconv-0.9.6-i486-1rsa is to be installed
lame-3.96.1-i486-1tsu is to be installed
doxygen-1.4.0-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.4.1-i486-1jac
libcroco-0.5.1-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 0.6.0-i486-1taj
whois-4.6.16-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 4.6.18-i486-1arf
libmikmod-3.1.10-i486-3 is to be upgraded to version 3.1.11a-i486-1syn
getmail-4.2.5-noarch-1 is to be upgraded to version 4.3.1-noarch-1h3x
postfix-2.1.3-i486-2stb is to be upgraded to version 2.1.5-i386-3zed
libidn-0.5.8-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 0.5.12-i486-1pcx
libgnomeprint-2.6.1-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.9.0-i486-1ph
pango-1.8.0-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.8.0-i486-2ph
transfig-3.2.4-i386-1 is to be upgraded to version 3.2.5alpha5-i486-1rsa
xfig-3.2.3d-i386-1 is to be upgraded to version 3.2.5alpha5-i486-2rsa
gv-3.5.8-i386-1 is to be upgraded to version 3.6.0-i386-1pvm
nmap-3.75-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 3.80-i486-1arf
imapd-4.62-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2004-i486-1rob
fvwm-2.4.19-i486-4 is to be upgraded to version 2.5.12-i486-1jim
gnome-vfs-2.6.1.1-i486-2 is to be upgraded to version 2.8.2-i486-1jim
glade-2.6.0-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.6.4-i486-1nec
libwmf-0.2.8.2-i486-2 is to be upgraded to version 0.2.8.3-i486-1rsa
libgsf-1.9.1-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.10.1-i486-1rsa
gnumeric-1.2.13-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.4.0-i486-1rsa
gaim-1.1.2-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.1.2-i486-2jim
reiserfsprogs-3.6.18-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 3.6.19-i486-1asz
python-2.4-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.4-i486-2dsa
flex-2.5.4a-i486-2 is to be upgraded to version 2.5.31-i486-1rsa
checkinstall-1.5.3-i486-2 is to be upgraded to version 1.6.0beta4-i486-1arf
gnet-2.0.4-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.0.5-i486-1asz
t1lib-1.3.1-i386-2 is to be upgraded to version 5.0.2-i486-2spi
gnome-icon-theme-1.2.3-noarch-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.9.2-noarch-1ph
gftp-2.0.17-i486-2 is to be upgraded to version 2.0.18rc1-i486-1arf
gnupg-1.2.7-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.4.1cvs-i486-2ph
xfractint-20.2.03-i386-1 is to be upgraded to version 20.3p02-i486-1arf
libmng-1.0.5-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 1.0.9-i686-1jlp
blackbox-0.65.0-i386-1 is to be upgraded to version 0.70.0beta2-i486-2nec
abiword-2.0.12-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 2.2.3-i486-1McD
fluxbox-0.9.12-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 0.9.12-i486-2nec
sox-12.17.6-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 12.17.7-i686-1jto
php-4.3.10-i486-1 is to be upgraded to version 5.0.3-i486-2jim
gtk-engines-2.2.0-i486-5 is to be upgraded to version 2.2.0-i486-8rob
Done
</snip>
 
Old 02-27-2005, 05:45 PM   #39
egag
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it's not adviced to run any program as root,
and when you know that program is able to remove/install packages
there can be only one advice : remove it.

furthermore the whole dependency subject is not really an issue.
as these programs ( if used ) only follow the version you run, non of
the updates should give any trouble.

egag
 
Old 02-27-2005, 06:22 PM   #40
sh1ft
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Quote:
Originally posted by gargamel
Sorry, you said that before. Here it is. To me it seems that slapt-get wants to replace official packages with packages from a slapt-get repository. Right?

Thanks again,

gargamel

Here again is what I see to be the major shortcoming of both swaret and slapt-get. The way repositories are implemented is godawful. Is it not possible to be able to upgrade official packages only with official packages and only use repos. packages to upgrade repos packages already installed? The bottom line with swaret and slapt-get is they are bloated ugly hacks.

With slackpkg I see the oppurtinity to throw weight behind something and finally get it done right.

Last edited by sh1ft; 02-27-2005 at 06:26 PM.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 06:42 PM   #41
Xian
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Quote:
Originally posted by sh1ft
Is it not possible to be able to upgrade official packages only with official packages and only use repos. packages to upgrade repos packages already installed?
That is an interesting point. Is there any distro packaging system that allows the user to manage their box in such a fashion?
 
Old 02-27-2005, 06:51 PM   #42
Xian
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Quote:
Originally posted by synaptical
if you want package mgmt, why not use a distro that has superior package management tools designed specifically for it, like arch or debian?
Well, even the Arch community continues to have long debates over what pacman should look like and the attributes that should be included. There never will be a package manager that everyone is completely happy with in any distro, and there will always be those that label one variety or another as "sucking". The best method is for each user to be an informed merchant of what is on their box and make decisions based upon that environment. Most of the problems that I see posted have to do with individuals just using tools blindly and with disregard for what they are actually intended to accomplish.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 08:47 PM   #43
synaptical
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most of those discussions are about cosmetics, i.e., should there be a gui. but for pure functionality, pacman has never failed me, probably because it is so simple. apt-get is necessarily a much more complex app, and is really amazing at what it does. the second hand slack managers can't compete with either of those, not even close.

but to me that's okay, because slack isn't designed to be debian or arch. it's more "open" in a certain sense, meaning compile anything, rather than having a "repository" to install from. but if you want an apt for slack, good luck, it's going to take a lot of work. why reinvent the wheel?

i'm happy running slack where i don't expect or need to have a package manager, for example, on a server, or on my laptop, where i want to just set it up and leave it instead of risking breaking stuff with a lot of upgrades. where i want a good package manager, e.g., desktop, i don't run slack, i run arch, which is a much better desktop distro in that respect.

it just seems to me there are a lot of people running slack who would be a lot happier with another distro (like arch), but they run slack just because they want to say they run slack.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 09:35 PM   #44
SiegeX
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Quote:
it's not adviced to run any program as root,
and when you know that program is able to remove/install packages
there can be only one advice : remove it.
I assume if you listened to your own advice you would have already rm -rf /sbin and /usr/sbin

Quote:
To me it seems that slapt-get wants to replace official packages with packages from a slapt-get repository. Right?
Not a slapt-get repository, but the linuxpackages.net respository. You have both official and unofficial SOURCE's listed in your slapt-getrc file. So when you run an --upgrade slapt-get will look at both and attempt to try to upgrade to the lastest version from the repositories you gave it.

What I reccomend you do is copy your slapt-getrc file to one called slapt-getrc_linuxpackages. Edit your original slapt-getrc file and remove all SOURCE lines referencing linuxpackages.net, and then edit the new conf file and remove all SOURCE lines NOT referencing linuxpackages.net. Now if you only want to upgrade official packages with official packages you run the command slapt-get --update && slapt-get --upgrade. However if you want to upgrade certain packages with new ones via linuxpackages.net you would do something along the lines of slapt-get --update --config /etc/slapt-get/slaptget-rc_linuxpackages && slapt-get --install firefox as an example. Note that you must run the --update command each time you want to switch conf files.

Quote:
Is it not possible to be able to upgrade official packages only with official packages and only use repos. packages to upgrade repos packages already installed?
This is a great point you bring up and I agree it is a deficiency in all update tools to date. I have two ideas on how to get this functionality into slapt-get with minimal changes and I will bring it up with the author to see if we can't do something about it. He seems to be pretty receptive to ideas that make sense. I'll keep you updated.

Quote:
Most of the problems that I see posted have to do with individuals just using tools blindly and with disregard for what they are actually intended to accomplish.
Regardless of your tool of choice, I full heartedly agree with this statement.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 09:47 PM   #45
SiegeX
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I realize that without dependancy metadata within the official packages themselves, neither slapt-get nor swaret will ever be able to do what apt-get or urpmi can do. However, when a new changelog comes out for -current, having my script email me to let me know there are new packages available, and only having to run 'slapt-get --dist-upgrade' to install the new packages is a nice convenience to me. I stick to slackware regardless of what can be seen as a deficiency in its package managment system because everything else it can do completly outweighs this one aspect. Slapt-get for me helps make the pain a bit more tolerable. I am actually currently seeking other distros to try out on a used spare box I just aquired, so far Mepis dissapointed me, perhaps Ill give Arch a try.
 
  


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