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Old 02-25-2005, 06:33 PM   #16
Genesee
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Quote:
Originally posted by satinet

To be honest. I haven't really seen a good Slackware HOWTO. I am thinking of using some webspace to explain stuff like where all the files live on a system.
satinet -

why not just contribute your efforts to already-existing projects like these?

http://handbook.madpenguin.org/
http://slackbook.lizella.net/
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/...e-Introduction


and for my $.02 - afaik, swaret just automates downloading and installing packages from mirrors you select. if it borks your system, either the package collection itself has unresolved dependencies, the packages are corrupt, or you select the wrong packages/mirrors. swaret is just a facilitator for those mistakes.
 
Old 02-25-2005, 08:58 PM   #17
Xian
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Quote:
Originally posted by Makaelin
Of course, I also developed a sacred rule about upgrading or changing packages - If I don't know precisely what it does, know why I need a new version, and haven't read the app docs over, I don't touch it.
Well yes, that's just the thing. People would rather spend a couple of hours trying to re-build a system instead of just browsing over what they should have been reading all along. It is provided for them in the most simple format I can imagine, such as the changelog, but even that will not entice them to avoid ignorant bliss, and instead they just continue to upgrade themselves into a botched system.

And then the complaining starts......
 
Old 02-26-2005, 12:52 AM   #18
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Im surprised none of you have brought up slapt-get which is a much more feature rich tool than slackpkg will ever be. Slapt-get is just what its name implies, an apt-get like tool for Slackware. It does *not* work the same way as swaret, which according to 'The Man' Patrick Volkerding, does "some funky things."

Let me take a few moments to explain why swaret is "A Bad Thing" (TM).

The official slackware packages do NOT contain any metadata regarding dependancy information. Swaret tries to get around this by the use of 'ldd' to see what library files are missing and looking at a list to see which package that library is contained in. This is a half-assed way to do this (all-be-it the only way to do it, but nonetheless half-assed).

For example. ldd can't tell you that 'man' requires 'groff', or that 'cpan2tgz' requires 'perl'. It can't tell you when packages conflict by overwriting files. Nor can it tell you when evolution would like to have gnome-spell available, but doesn't require it.

Slapt-get understands this and does not attempt to do any dependancy checking AT ALL for Official slackware packages. The reason why I bolded out the word 'Official' is because slapt-get has the capability to do dependancy resolution the RIGHT way for unofficial packages, ie pretty much everything on linuxpackages.net and the like. What is the right way you ask? Putting in dependancy metadata within the Packages themselves via a file called slack-required, much like RPM's do within their respective spec file. Many packages on linuxpackages.net respect this new dependancy frame work and Vector Linux which is based off of Slackware uses it with ALL their packages and uses slapt-get as their exclusive package managment tool, that should give you an idea of how powerfull slapt-get is.

IMHO I would stay away from swaret, although it's noble what they are trying to do, its just not the right way to go about it and I wont subject my box to a method it wasnt designed for. Also, in case you didnt know this, the authors of swaret are EXTREMELY juvenile and immature. They had their project removed from Freshmeat.net because of their constant display of immaturity. If you want to see for yourselves, just go to http://freshmeat.net/projects/slaptget/ and read the comments starting from the bottom up.

If you want more information on just exactly what slapt-get does and doesn't do, read the wonderfully written FAQ that covers pretty much everything you can think of. It is available here

http://software.jaos.org/BUILD/slapt-get/FAQ.html

I would particularly suggest you look at Questions #10 and #17 which talk about dependancies and the slack-required file.

Last edited by SiegeX; 02-26-2005 at 01:12 AM.
 
Old 02-26-2005, 02:41 AM   #19
xushi
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Quote:
Originally posted by satinet
And lets all be honest. 95% of the time there is no need to upgrade. I just get bored and want to download the latest thing. Come on own up! Then you wish you hadn't......
lol granted, especially when i had to learn the hard way to type 'lilo' after it upgraded my kernel before i had to exclude it... But like you said, once you know wtf you're doing, its not that bad.

Quote:
PS. Don't flame me!
Comeon, we're all grownups her..... WHO AM I KIDDING??? bah.. goosfrabah... goosfrabah
 
Old 02-26-2005, 04:48 AM   #20
satinet
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Hiya,

I like the debate..... I guess there is a weakness in the whole Slackware package system. I don't know if Pat plans to change anything with slack 11. I guess he's had other stuff to worry about lately..... does anyone else find the stuff on linuxpackages.net is not always the best. Better to compile yourself sometimes....

I think me point about slack howto's was that there's isn't much that gives people an overview - telling someone how to edit a certain file doesn't make them understand why a file is there and what it actually does. Although, it's always vaild to make the point that people should use their own initiative to learn. I see things from the perspective of someone who works on HP-UX all day without so much as a sniff at a GUI. Admititly that is different. Most people aren't going to have a RAID 10 disk array at home. But it does really enlighten you about the inner workings of the system. And lets face it slack, is pretty 'unix like' in it's philosophy. Maybe I am just dreaming of a unix systems guide really. But I don't know enough to write that myself. I guess the poster above is right. I'll try and contribute my two pence worth somewhere.

I just tried Ubuntu on my laptop. Yeah, it's all very automatic. But also rather erratic. I just love using slack so much - it's so smooth and quick. But I guess things like Ubuntu are part of Linux development. You can't beat the slack community either can you?

BTW, I concur about the SWARET people. I stopped using it.......
 
Old 02-26-2005, 08:40 AM   #21
egag
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mayby try this, it's an info/download-tool for Slackware updates.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...hreadid=295073

works ok and very safe ( no auto-install )

egag
 
Old 02-26-2005, 08:48 AM   #22
Xian
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I think the larger point would be to use what you like, but just know how to use it and realize what it is intended to do with your system. I don't see much point of launching into smear comments on developers, as that is a highly subjective tactic and does nothing to actually further the discussion about how a particular application should be utilized. Not to mention that it is problematically offensive, and that is not what the Slack community should be about.
 
Old 02-26-2005, 11:06 AM   #23
Makaelin
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Yeah, I try and keep critiques centered on the technical aspect. To be honest, if the biggest asshole in the world also made the hands-down best OS in the world, I'd use it. I don't have to like someone for them to be a good coder.

I haven't used Slapt-get, but then again I never used the dependency checking in Swaret. I checked them myself by installing the package, trying to run it, then seeing what was missing.
 
Old 02-26-2005, 04:47 PM   #24
SiegeX
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Quote:
I don't see much point of launching into smear comments on developers, as that is a highly subjective tactic and does nothing to actually further the discussion about how a particular application should be utilized. Not to mention that it is problematically offensive, and that is not what the Slack community should be about.
Quote:
To be honest, if the biggest asshole in the world also made the hands-down best OS in the world, I'd use it. I don't have to like someone for them to be a good coder.
I, on the other hand am exactly the opposite, and I know MANY others who moved away from swaret for the same reason. Character is a very important trait, immature behavior may not affect the quality of coding but it CAN greatly affect the project as a whole. And we saw exactly that when it was pulled off Freshmeat. I personally would not want to support a project who uses juvenile tactics to try to prevent a similar tool from becoming competition. If you take offense to me brining this up, you should realize how silly that is. The "Slackware Community" is all about knowledge, and this IMHO is very relevant.
 
Old 02-26-2005, 06:23 PM   #25
Xian
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Quote:
Originally posted by SiegeX
If you take offense to me brining this up, you should realize how silly that is. The "Slackware Community" is all about knowledge, and this IMHO is very relevant.
I took no offense. I stated my opinion just as you have been doing. You are engaging in a very subjective tactic, and my belief is that this is an unwelcome addition to any discussion regarding the merits or deficiencies of software applications. I've known a lot of developers (and within the general public) that I wouldn't care to spend five minutes with, but I'm not about to go around posting about how much I dislike their positions and actions.

None of us are any saints. We've all acted badly at one time or another. I would like to think that my dirty laundry wouldn't be aired in such a casual method. At that point I'm no better than the person I'm taking the time to deride. And that is when the entire subject loses any relevance whatsoever. Which means that in the end it has been a complete waste of time and advanced nothing save a certain position.
 
Old 02-26-2005, 06:46 PM   #26
gargamel
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XSiege: Thanks for the comparison. I once started a thread on LQ asking for explanation of the differences between slapt-get and swaret and some other tool, the name of which I currently don't remember.

I personally have tried slapt-get and swaret, and both worked reliably, but I found that I don't need them....

I do use slackpkg, however, as it is 'official'. And that it is in /extra doesn't mean it is not mature for use on production machines. If it wasn't, it would be in /testing. /extra is, to my knowledge, for 'convenience' stuff --- programs that do things that can be done without them, just with some more effort. k3b and XCDRoast are excellent examples. As long as k3b didn't pass the quality tests of Slackware it wasn't part of the distribution. Now in /extra, although you can do the same things with just mkisofs and cdrecord.

But unfortunately, the wildcard support of slackpkg is limited, and you can't upgrade packages that aren't part of the official distribution with it. If you grab something from LinuxPackages.net, slackpkg won't know how to upgrade it.

And, BTW, swaret is listed on Freshmeat...

What I actually would like to have is a tool authorised by Pat that automatically checks for, downloads and installs security fixes in a safe way, so that you can have a server running unattended for some time, without it becoming an open door to your LAN or home network over the time. slackpkg is not currently that. And the other tools aren't authorised, so I don't trust them, although they worked well, when I tried them out a while ago.

Of course, it's not too difficult to write a script that uses wget and the Slackware package management tools for installing security fixes, and creating a cron job for that script...

gargamel
 
Old 02-26-2005, 09:51 PM   #27
SiegeX
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Quote:
None of us are any saints. We've all acted badly at one time or another. I would like to think that my dirty laundry wouldn't be aired in such a casual method. At that point I'm no better than the person I'm taking the time to deride. And that is when the entire subject loses any relevance whatsoever. Which means that in the end it has been a complete waste of time and advanced nothing save a certain position
I respect your opinion, and I would agree with you if the character of the authors were the main focus of my thread, which as im sure you'll agree, it wasn't. As you said it's a subjective argument, but nonetheless I felt it was a necessary statement to add for completness.

Quote:
And the other tools aren't authorised, so I don't trust them, although they worked well, when I tried them out a while ago.
Just to let you know the reason why swaret and slapt-get are not in extra is due to the behavior that Pat whitnessed on Freshmeat. It has less to do with "authorized" and more to do with being something Pat didnt want to get involved with, so he decided to leave them both out. For Official packages, slapt-get really is nothing more than an automated front-end to 'pkgtools'.

Quote:
Of course, it's not too difficult to write a script that uses wget and the Slackware package management tools for installing security fixes, and creating a cron job for that script...
Great idea, and its already been done by yours truly . It does require slapt-get however. Its pretty feature-rich but I'll let you read the script to see what It can do rather than go off topic here. Get it at

http://www.atozcomp.com/slapt_update

Last edited by SiegeX; 02-26-2005 at 09:52 PM.
 
Old 02-27-2005, 09:23 AM   #28
gargamel
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Thanks! I'll have a look at it.

In the meantime, maybe you can answer me a question regarding slapt-get (you seem to know this tool pretty well!).

I installed the latest version 9.9h and did
<snip>
# slapt-get --upgrade
Reading Package Lists... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libgnomecups psiconv lame
The following packages will be upgraded:
doxygen libcroco whois libmikmod getmail postfix libidn libgnomeprint pango
transfig xfig gv nmap imapd fvwm gnome-vfs glade libwmf libgsf gnumeric gaim
reiserfsprogs python flex checkinstall gnet t1lib gnome-icon-theme gftp
gnupg xfractint libmng blackbox abiword fluxbox sox php gtk-engines
38 upgraded, 3 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 78MB of archives.
After unpacking 53MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [y/N] N
</snip>

Now, my question is: How come that slapt-get wants to upgrade all these packages in a standard 10.1 system, with only five additional packages installed: postfix, cyrus-sasl, OpenOffice.org, Mozilla Firefox and Mozilla Thunderbird?
slackpkg doesn't get this idea, and as the additional programs appear to work well, and the docs don't speak of a lot of dependencies, I wonder, why slapt-get wants to upgrade my system.

gargamel
 
Old 02-27-2005, 11:47 AM   #29
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I'd just like to say here I think slackpkg is the future for a few reasons. It doesn't add extrataneous functions like the dependancy checking and compile options in swaret, it seems alot cleaner and less confusing than slapt-get.

All in all it's just a much tighter script, it doesn't pretend to do anything past what pkgtool does with ugly hacks, besides providing the ability to get them through the net instead of off a cd. Swaret and slapt-get seem too intrusive like they're trying to replace pkgtool when that is just not needed. Slackpkg really fits into the slack philosophy of having things just work and not trying to do anything extrataneous that is not needed.

Really I hope people will switch over and support it so we can see better development and integration with slack as a part of the distro instead of just a 3rd party package in /extra. Slack has needed an official network install tool for some time and finally we have something that fits the bill nicely.,
 
Old 02-27-2005, 12:41 PM   #30
gargamel
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I agree, and use slackpkg already, occasionally. However, I need to use software that is not part of the official distribution. For the additional packages that I usually grab from LinuxPackages.net slackpkg is of no help, at the moment.

If support for non-official packages is added, slackpkg can become enormously valuable.

gargamel
 
  


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