LinuxQuestions.org
Download your favorite Linux distribution at LQ ISO.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions > Slackware
User Name
Password
Slackware This Forum is for the discussion of Slackware Linux.

Notices



Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 03-14-2014, 12:04 PM   #76
moisespedro
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2013
Location: Brazil
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 1,142

Rep: Reputation: 152Reputation: 152

Quote:
Originally Posted by tronayne View Post
A few weeks ago a friend asked if I would help her get a new computer; her old one, ten or so years old, XP, not much RAM, was giving up the ghost and she didn't want to try to update.

I didn't even suggest Linux -- went shopping at Staples, found a Dell box with Win7, 4-core Xeon, 8G RAM, and a terabyte drive(!). Came with keyboard and mouse, selected a Samsung LED display, selected a router (she was also getting satellite service), selected an APC UPS (her old one's battery wouldn't hold a charge).

OK, Peggy, if you're ready, let's go shopping.

Point to the computer, point to the Samsung and an Acer LCD next to it (same price on sale), pointed to the router (when the grandkids come, they'll be able to use their wi-fi stuff, Peg), pointed to the UPS.

You OK with all this?

Yup.

Throw the boxes in the pickup, head to her house, up and running in about an hour. Spend a little time explaining the subtle (and some not-so-subtle) differences between WinXP and Win7. Happy camper: Golly, this thing is fast (well, yeah, it is, even with Windows).

Removed the expensive anti-virus introduction package, installed Microsoft Security Essentials. Removed other crap, shut of auto-start stuff.

Installed OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird. Got her gmail account (she was running with dial-up and used the ISP mail, no more of that). She likes the separate mail application, so Thunderbird. She never liked IE, so Firefox (Gee, this is really nice!). Her husband is the township supervisor and she does all the "secretarial" work for him (he doesn't touch computers). Loves OpenOffice with all the bells and whistles. Installed Adblock Plus, didn't install NoScript (it's kind of a pain for the uninitiated). Shut off the Java plug-in.

In the weeks since, exactly two questions: one about resizing images, one about why the lights are flashing really fast on the satellite modem every so often (Were you playing a game on Facebook? Uh, yeah. OK, try to avoid that sort of thing or you'll eat your 10G monthly allowance. Oh.).

Linux on that box? Maybe someday but not now. Peggy is an explorer, likes to fiddle with things, reads the instructions, pays attention to the details. But she's not ready for Linux and may never be -- you have to consider your audience -- I'd like to convert her but that's for next year, maybe, maybe not (get her used to the applications -- OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird that she actually uses -- then maybe a step in a different direction).

She's a happy, happy camper and that's a good thing.

We'll see.
If I ever converted someone like my grandma to Linux I'd have to live on her house lol and I am a linux noob myself
 
Old 03-14-2014, 12:13 PM   #77
GazL
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 3,503

Rep: Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
Heh-heh. Yes. I highly recommend it. Some bells, not all of the whistles.
Don't worry about lack of whistles: at Brian's age he's probably lost most of his high-frequency hearing anyway.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-14-2014, 12:51 PM   #78
tronayne
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Northeastern Michigan, where Carhartt is a Designer Label
Distribution: Slackware 32- & 64-bit Stable
Posts: 3,122

Rep: Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ook View Post
OMG HOW DO YOU GET RID OF IT???? This has got to be the single most annoying "feature" of xfce.
Click on the Applications Menu, click on Settings, click on Window Manager Tweaks, click on Accessibility and deselect Automatically Tile Windows when moving toward the screen edge.

Bye-bye "feature."

Nice post; my favorite terminal was a Wyse 99-GT (the one that had built-in plotting). Amber characters on a black background, used it for about five years until the vertical oscillator gave up the ghost. Started out whacking on a ASR-33 Teletype. Was a bass player (the stand up kind) so I already had strong fingers thankfully. That would have been in '74 or so connected to a Honeywell mainframe (with a 300 baud modem) running GECOS. After learning on a keypunch (in '61 and for quite while afterwards, that damned Teletype was a dream).

Hope this helps some.

[edit]
Oh, I forgot, I can't take credit for this, it was somebody else on this forum that clued me in (and I can't remember who it was and can't find the post in My Posts, either).

Sorry to whoever.
[/edit]

Last edited by tronayne; 03-14-2014 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Credit where credit is due
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-14-2014, 12:54 PM   #79
cwizardone
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2007
Distribution: Slackware64-current & "True Multilib." PC-BSD.
Posts: 2,276

Rep: Reputation: 187Reputation: 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by tronayne View Post
Click on the Applications Menu, click on Settings, click on Window Manager Tweaks, click on Accessibility and deselect Automatically Tile Windows when moving toward the screen edge...
@tronayne,

Thank you very much!


Last edited by cwizardone; 03-14-2014 at 01:07 PM.
 
Old 03-14-2014, 12:55 PM   #80
Ook
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Hell, Arizona
Distribution: Slackware 14.1
Posts: 374

Rep: Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by tronayne View Post
Click on the Applications Menu, click on Settings, click on Window Manager Tweaks, click on Accessibility and deselect Automatically Tile Windows when moving toward the screen edge.

Bye-bye "feature."
I cannot thank you enough! That has been making me nutso for a very long time!!!!

I once bought a Packard Bell PC/XT. Had an Nec v20 drop in replacement for the 8086 that ran at 3.2 MHz, and 1MB ram. Fastest computer I ever had up until then, and what on earth do you do with 1MB ram? That is more memory then I knew what to do with....
 
Old 03-14-2014, 01:13 PM   #81
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 736

Rep: Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ook View Post
<some snips & reverse order>

I moved to xfce when KDE 4.x came out. Why? I felt that KDE was bloated and had unnecessary eye candy and had higher resource consumption, something I discovered by doing some simple benchmarks - when I did I discovered KDE using more than twice the memory that xfce did. This isn't denigrating anyone for their choices, it was simply my observations of KDE at the time and the reason I moved to xfce. If this offends someone, then they can go right ahead and be offended for all i care. I discovered xfce and it was love at first sight.

I don't even have a smart phone. Not that I wouldn't know what to do with one, I've just never felt the need to have one. I don't take selfies every time a pigeon flies by, I like my dumb cell phone. It makes phone calls and I can play solitary on it.
I'm glad you like Xfce. I do, too. On this thread it was I that took offense at the assertion that KDE IS bloated, not that it wasn't when v4 was first released. It is important to note that KDE stated clearly that v4 was "not for production machines" but in the rush to "be first on your block!" distros negligently jumped on like fleas. The "evil few" were indeed hogs back then but it was only supposed to be in development stage, not default on many distros. It is worthy of note that Patrick held out for longer than most, but I suppose had to weigh caution versus a label of overly cautious with so many clamoring for v4 back then.

Apparently you, and maybe some others, missed the most recent thread but several people, including me, tested resource usage at idle on both Xfce and current KDE. The difference in RAM footprint varied between 100-200MB... CPU less than 3% difference on average, iirc, with KDE using more.... more, but not a lot especially by today's standards, and there are reasons why. Incidentally my numbers were with Strigi, Nepomuk, Akonadai.... in fact everything KDE starts by default, still active. Some disable those for even lower footprint.

There is so much more about how that bold investment paid off but I don't wish to hijack this thread. I just want it clear that 1) There is no need to denigrate others choices to justify ones own, and 2) This is "doubled down" when the information is obsolete and incorrect. I'm quite certain people here would be all up in arms if someone posted that "I don't use Slackware because it is so old it uses the 2.4 kernel, gcc 3.2, and Gnome 2". It was true at one time, but it isn't now, so it's irresponsible to fault it without checking it's current state. It's still perfectly valid to switch and stay switched for whatever reason, just not ethical to sway others with falsehoods.

It's interesting and a propos that you mentioned age as a pattern, since it is commonly the younger males suffering from DTB that feel compelled to engage in the old "Chevy Rox!, Ford Sux!" battles.

I presently don't have a smartphone either but it is looking like one is in my future and largely because of KDE Connect. You really should take a few minutes to see this! KDE Connect It's just begun and already it does amazing things fusing and extending both phones and PCs.

As for Slackware love, Patrick chose wisely I think for dumping Gnome and keeping KDE as the premier DE while not excluding so many others even on the install media. Additionally, Eric (Alien Bob) has said he is building KDE Connect slackbuild for both 14.0 and 14.1.
 
Old 03-14-2014, 01:18 PM   #82
Ook
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Hell, Arizona
Distribution: Slackware 14.1
Posts: 374

Rep: Reputation: 36
IIRC I looked at it about a month ago and saw nothing that gave me cause to change my assessment of bloat and unnecessary eye candy. This included my own benches and observations of memory usage, which was far more than 100-200mb difference at the time. But hey, my family likes chocolate ice cream, and I personally don't care for it. Rocky Road is the way to go for me

KDE is awesome and gets the job done. I don't use it. I personally consider it to *still* be bloated and *still* have excessive eye candy. This does not make it better or worse, it just means I prefer xfce for the reasons stated above.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-14-2014, 01:51 PM   #83
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 736

Rep: Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ook View Post
IIRC I looked at it about a month ago and saw nothing that gave me cause to change my assessment of bloat and unnecessary eye candy. This included my own benches and observations of memory usage, which was far more than 100-200mb difference at the time. But hey, my family likes chocolate ice cream, and I personally don't care for it. Rocky Road is the way to go for me

KDE is awesome and gets the job done. I don't use it. I personally consider it to *still* be bloated and *still* have excessive eye candy. This does not make it better or worse, it just means I prefer xfce for the reasons stated above.
I have no explanation for why 4 of us got similar numbers and yours are so much higher. Perhaps unfamiliarity? Suggestions?

Eye candy is not what made KDE feel bloated. Indexing was, until they got the algorithms and scheduling sorted. But since that's what it means for you, let me just mention eye candy can be turned off, downgraded to whatever you want. I'm confident I can add enough stuff to Xfce to make it excessive but that doesn't mean Xfce by definition must be bloated. This would be misuse of the term, and while commonplace, is still just incorrect, in either case.

I noted with interest that you simply stated your family "likes chocolate" but you "don't care for it" and prefer Rocky Road. You didn't say something like "I won't buy chocolate because it supports Colombian Drug Lords, and don't even get me started on Strawberry!" See the difference? No need for justifying a positive choice by creating a negative alternative. You like it. It does what you want. What KDE does is irrelevant to you. That is that!
 
Old 03-14-2014, 03:36 PM   #84
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 7,145
Blog Entries: 52

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
Don't worry about lack of whistles: at Brian's age he's probably lost most of his high-frequency hearing anyway.
Yeah. Some people say the first thing to go with age is hearing. Others say it's memory...Forget what else they said, they were speaking too quietly.
 
Old 03-14-2014, 03:49 PM   #85
Ook
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Hell, Arizona
Distribution: Slackware 14.1
Posts: 374

Rep: Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
....
I noted with interest that you simply stated your family "likes chocolate" but you "don't care for it" and prefer Rocky Road. You didn't say something like "I won't buy chocolate because it supports Colombian Drug Lords, and don't even get me started on Strawberry!" See the difference? No need for justifying a positive choice by creating a negative alternative. You like it. It does what you want. What KDE does is irrelevant to you. That is that!
I justify my choices in whatever manner I choose, not how someone else thinks I should. And if how I do it offends someone, as I said before they can get offended for all I care. Political correctness has come to linuxquestions.org. How sad.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-14-2014, 04:59 PM   #86
perbh
Member
 
Registered: May 2008
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 261

Rep: Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
Yeah. Some people say the first thing to go with age is hearing. Others say it's memory...Forget what else they said, they were speaking too quietly.
OMG - that's me to a tee!!!
 
Old 03-14-2014, 05:11 PM   #87
astrogeek
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2008
Distribution: Slackware [64]X{.0|.1|.2|-current} ::X>=12<=14, FreeBSD_10{.0|.1}
Posts: 2,200

Rep: Reputation: 863Reputation: 863Reputation: 863Reputation: 863Reputation: 863Reputation: 863Reputation: 863
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
Yeah. Some people say the first thing to go with age is hearing. Others say it's memory...Forget what else they said, they were speaking too quietly.
Huh? Did you say something Brad.... uhmmm Bart... Brian?
 
Old 03-15-2014, 02:39 AM   #88
enorbet
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware 14 is Main OpSys on Main PC, 2ndary are OpenSuSe 13 and SolydK
Posts: 736

Rep: Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345Reputation: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ook View Post
I justify my choices in whatever manner I choose, not how someone else thinks I should. And if how I do it offends someone, as I said before they can get offended for all I care. Political correctness has come to linuxquestions.org. How sad.
Political Correctness? How does that apply here? It's ethics! Why would one support their position with what boils down to lies, once an inaccurate position has been proven?

You stated "eye candy" as an example of inherent bloat.

I stated -

1) KDE has more default eye candy but it is easily downgraded or removed.

2) Xfce has less default eye candy but it can be added.

3) I, or anyone, can create a KDE config that has lower resource usage than an Xfce config I, or anyone, can create.

Am I lying? Have you tried it or even suppose it is impossible? Am I just trying to protect someones feelings? Pffff!

so to say that KDE, is inherently bloated, isn't political. It's just mistaken, short-sighted and unethical. To continue to choose something unethical says something about your character, not the quality of your original choice you wish to justify. It has nothing to do with how someone else "thinks you should". It has to do with how YOU think you should, once you know the facts. Or can you falsify the above?

Bottom Line - It has nothing to do with being offended but a lot to do with how people will assess your character (and the value of your posts here) if you show you give carte blanche license to yourself and have few or no guiding principles.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-15-2014 at 02:45 AM.
 
Old 03-15-2014, 08:26 AM   #89
tronayne
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Northeastern Michigan, where Carhartt is a Designer Label
Distribution: Slackware 32- & 64-bit Stable
Posts: 3,122

Rep: Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819Reputation: 819
My problem with KDE (which triggered a switch to Xfce) began a few releases ago with the so-called Evil Twins; i.e., Akonadi and Nepomuk, which at first were... well, kind of nasty. Didn't really work, couldn't figure out just what the heck they were, and they were just flat getting in the way.

When I found out that, essentially, they were for indexing (which is what locate is for), well, enough of that nonsense, thank you, don't need two indexing daemons running all the time. They may have gotten better, but, frankly, who cares. Once somebody imposes a clumsy expensive (in terms of resource use -- mine and system) thing on me by default and I have to waste a lot of my and other folks' time fixing or getting rid of that, well, I'm done. That's what Microsoft does and we all just love Microsoft, eh?

When Pat got rid of GNOME (a gargantuan piece of stuff that I did not use after one try) in favor of KDE, seemed like a Good Idea until KDE started acting like GNOME and Microjunk. I've been doing software for a long, long time and the most important lesson learned during a wasted youth was to adhere to Doug McIlory's Unix Philosophy (down at the bottom of the page here): write programs that do one thing and do it well. If you go look at Unix utilities, you'll notice something: they're small, efficient and effective. If you look at GNU utilities, well, they're a bit more complicated and larger; I believe that is the result of not being able to leave well enough alone.

By the way, Dough McIlroy is the guy that invented pipe, possibly one of the greatest contributions to computing ever (after C and Unix itself anyway).

An example would be the difference between AWK and GAWK. AWK (available from Brian Kernighan's web page at Princeton (http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/) is small, tight, efficient and effective. GAWK has "extensions;" somebody's idea of more is better -- bloat. Aho, Weinberger and Kernighan (get it? AWK?) wrote an efficient programming language (and the book about it) in 1988 (New AWK which replaced Old AWK) and it hasn't changed since and there is no reason to change or add to it (on Solaris systems you get oawk and nawk to choose from). If you download the source from the link, it'll build and install on Linux and runs circles around GAWK; save the a.out as nawk and there you go.

A slightly different example would be ex, the extended editor, originating at Bell Labs. vi is ex running in visual mode (thanks to Bill Joy and crew at Berkeley). ex is small, efficient and effective. Does one thing and does it well. Nowadays, on Slackware, ex is a symbolic link to vim. Used to be a link to elvis (a gargantuan piece of code that tries to be all things to all people with bells, whistles and who knows what-all.

GNU has done a wonderful job of building look- work-alike software emulating Unix utilities (GNU is GNU's Not Unix); free and open source, well done, thank you. A little bloated here and there, over time a bunch of "extensions," some good, some not, some questionable but so what? It works.

I learned programming on "large" systems (that nowadays are your average desktop, maybe even your phone or your wristwatch); I also learned on microcomputers -- Z-80 processor, 32K RAM, flip switches, heat the house with the thing. I learned to "write programs that do one thing and do it well" simply because I had to. Upgrade to 64K RAM, oh, what a relief it is. New box, Motorola 68000 processor, one whole megabyte of RAM, 50M disk drive, wow, zowie, nirvana. Still wrote as small as I could, still do on what would have been considered a mammoth computer (4-core, 16G RAM, drive array are you kidding me?).

Software that tries to be all things to all people, at least in my experience, tends to not do all those things efficiently or too well (my opinion). For that reason, I don't like KDE -- it's not "bad," but it's not "good" either. Xfce, from the release found in Slackware 14.0 to the one found in 14.1 is "better" but it's growing. Still smaller and cleaner, but developers just can't seem to avoid adding features, tweaking things and fiddling around until something breaks; the default Automatically Tile Windows when moving toward the screen edge "feature" that drives a lot of folks up the wall may just be one of those.

The question is not how well but rather why at all (think those little dancing dog in the circus here).

But then again, Linux is all about choice -- it's up to you what you use and why and how you use it. I like X-windows, I like having multiple windows open, I like being able to quickly and easily customize what I see on the screen to be as simple and unadorned as possible. Other folks like photos of the grandkids, oceans, stars, artwork, pretty girls (or boys, gotta be equal here), cars, airplanes, space ships, you name it. Different strokes, no right or wrong there.

I will always appreciate something well-done and useful; hey, that's why Slackware, eh?

Hope this helps some.
 
4 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-15-2014, 10:13 AM   #90
cwizardone
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2007
Distribution: Slackware64-current & "True Multilib." PC-BSD.
Posts: 2,276

Rep: Reputation: 187Reputation: 187
^^^
Excellent. Well said! Best post in this thread.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
why I love slackware ! idnotcrae Slackware 14 03-20-2012 02:09 PM
I Love Slackware! leemoreau Slackware 5 02-11-2004 01:08 PM
I love Slackware :) satanic_linux Slackware 8 02-03-2004 10:24 AM
If you love Slackware... hecresper LinuxQuestions.org Member Success Stories 8 08-31-2003 11:17 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration