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View Poll Results: Should The Multilib Files Be:
Included in the Default Installation? 5 4.27%
Offered as an Option during the installation? 32 27.35%
Available in /extra (not part of the installation)? 70 59.83%
Not included on the CD or DVD? 10 8.55%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-04-2010, 07:47 PM   #31
Alexvader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
Can anyone even begin to "ascert" the economic lost via the thousands, if not tens of thousands, of jobs lost across the entire American aviation industry because of a company who built aircraft it couldn't otherwise afford to build if it hadn't been for the "illegal" funding provided by a consortium of European countries?
Hi Cwizardone

Would you kindly define "illegal" ?

The issue is important, because it pertains to "whose interests" the "law" is purported to protect...

Within a single State-Nation, the definition is easier... "illegal" is everything that is ruled out by a constitutional precept to be "criminal", unlawful, not serving the welfare of the community as a whole...

Quite simple, i should say...

When it comes to International Trade, Geopolitics, Environment Protection... in short :

when it comes to dealing with distribution of scarce resources, like water, marketshares, land and sea... everything gets a bit dark, wouldn't you agree... ?

Why should American's Interests be above European's, or Japanese's or Chinese's.... ?

On which grounds...?

one can argue, on Military Power... like Commodore Perry did in the 1800 about the decision of the Sovereign State of Imperial Japan to do trade which whoever Nations it would choose...

or like most Western Powers did with the late Chinese Empire in the Opium War...

To them, this was a Righteous deed, supported and funded by milliions of Tax-Payers in Germany, England, France, United States, Spain, Japan...

What about listening to the opinion of a Chinese...? It would be a bit different I guess...


but if it is so... there is no righteous argument to limit the "reason" ( military power ) of whatever player in geopolitical scene to achieve the same parity of arguments as the US... wouldn't you agree...?

There is no "Absolute Source of Law" in International Relations... there is Bargaining, and GunBoat Diplomacy IMO... and millions of ppl starving, just because some wise dudes think that they own the World...

BRGDS

Alex


IMHO, American recognition of the "Relativization of Right" of multilateral interests was tacitly assumed in the
Taft-Katsura memorandum... about spheres of Infuence in the Pacific Ocean, and in the Southeast Asia...

Last edited by Alexvader; 01-04-2010 at 08:04 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 03:46 AM   #32
gargamel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samac View Post
in /extra would be good for me and then slackpkg could deal with the updates.

samac
This is what I'd vote for, too!

gargamel
 
Old 01-05-2010, 04:07 AM   #33
Ilgar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Unfortunately, the arrogance of "major distros" forces all the rest along this slippery slope and in the end, I think it will be inevitable that we as Slackware will either fall into this dark pit or else are forced to stop being a consumer desktop distribution.
I'm using Slackware for home desktop and that won't change even if you ditch KDE in the future. I think most Slack users choose Slack not to experience the latest fashion but to run a rock hard system. Besides, lately XFCE has improved a lot in terms of desktop features, so we're not totally out of alternatives. The Gnome guys plan about a revamp of Gnome for 3.0 next year. I hope they make it something easier to maintain so that in case Slackware abandons KDE there is a chance to consider replacing it with Gnome.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 08:35 AM   #34
jong357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
Though not at all a KDE user, I admit removing it would probably drastically reduce Slackware's users base.

What, you mean like it did with Gnome users?

Gnome completely screwed up by going with consolekit, policykit and Pam. Now KDE is making the same hair brained move.

I say good riddance to both of them. As Ilgar said, XFCE is quite nice these days. A little more desktop functionality and it'll be the way Gnome should have been (and was around 2.16).

Last edited by jong357; 01-05-2010 at 08:46 AM.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 08:41 AM   #35
brianL
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I mostly use KDE, but I'd rather see KDE dropped than have Slackware undergo radical changes and go the way of the "major distros".
 
Old 01-05-2010, 08:50 AM   #36
sahko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
I'm using Slackware for home desktop and that won't change even if you ditch KDE in the future. I think most Slack users choose Slack not to experience the latest fashion but to run a rock hard system. Besides, lately XFCE has improved a lot in terms of desktop features, so we're not totally out of alternatives. The Gnome guys plan about a revamp of Gnome for 3.0 next year. I hope they make it something easier to maintain so that in case Slackware abandons KDE there is a chance to consider replacing it with Gnome.
GNOME is (naturally) much more agressive in this aspect.
GNOME has had policykit for years. All those new technologies, HAL , *kit's are tested on GNOME before ever getting into KDE.
After all, all those "major distros" use GNOME as their primary desktop environment.

Last edited by sahko; 01-05-2010 at 08:52 AM.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 09:12 AM   #37
gargamel
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To my knowledge, Policykit has been used by Gnome for quite a while, and is therefore included with the major distros. As these are used on "enterprise desktops" and mission-critical servers, stability is probably not *that* bad, at least in the version included with their "Enterprise Linux" products.

What I am going to say is: Not everyone else is an idiot. Looking back, there was a similar discussion regarding D-BUS and HAL. Some people still don't like them, but I found and find it a great relief, and I haven't any stability issues with them.

I guess, it's a matter of time, until polkit is mature enough for Slackware, but there are many people using and improving it. It won't probably take that long, before the green banana turns yellow.

At least, I hope so. Because I like KDE a lot, and would rather not see it dropped from Slackware.

gargamel
 
Old 01-05-2010, 09:24 AM   #38
Ilgar
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Well you're right, I've been away from Gnome for so long that I didn't realize the same problem exists for that one, too. Well, we're left with XFCE then .
 
Old 01-05-2010, 09:29 AM   #39
Didier Spaier
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Fluxbox is good enough for me
 
Old 01-05-2010, 09:43 AM   #40
Lufbery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Indeed... Have you already tried building version 0.95 or even "polkit-1" (which is the code available in policykit repository). Distros are moving to polkit-1 which is a change in course for policykit. The git snapshot of polkit has a lot more PAM entanglement, which will require more work to undo than the relatively small fixes you could get away with in 0.9.

Also, in order to make use of polkit in the console (which we need because the average Slacker still startx X from the console with "startx") we need consolekit supporting the shadow utilities (or the reverse, shadow utilities supporting consolekit) as well.

It is not so simple unfortunately. If the *kit could be made to work with shadow that would be quite beneficial for Slackware.

Eric
Eric,

I have a couple of questions and a comment.

Questions:
  1. Is the major hang-up with polkit-1 (policy kit, whatever...) that it requires PAM?
  2. Is Polkit intended to replace shadow?
  3. Given that polkit is a pain in the right now, do you see any advantages to using it?

Comment:
I've only been using Slackware for a few years, starting right after version 11 was released. But while I'm a relative Slackware newbie,I've been using computers since 1982 when my grandfather bought me a Timex-Sinclair 1000 (28 years!).

I use Slackware as my exclusive desktop and laptop OS because of the care Pat and the team take in building it. I truly appreciate how the additions of HAL, D-bus, KDE 4, and 64-bit computing have been so smooth and mostly trouble-free. I also appreciate how you, Robby, Vincent Batts, Chess Griffin, Gilbert Ashley and others work hard to enhance Slackware users' experiences.

My hope is that KDE does not get dropped from Slackware. I've tried other WMs and none of them have the full set of features that KDE has. XFCE is a good WM, but it lacks the polish of KDE 4.3, and when I use it, I end up running KDE apps in it. While a vocal group on this board really do not like KDE, I suspect that the majority (51% or more ) of Slackware users use KDE. Losing it would marginalize Slackware.

I'm confident that Pat, you, and the rest of the team will find a way through the strangeness with Polkit and KDE and continue to make Slackware, among other things, a modern desktop OS.

Regards,
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-05-2010, 09:53 AM   #41
Alexvader
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I used to be a "Gnomer" myself...

In Debian Lenny, Gnome would freeze randomly... requiring a hard power off reboot...

Since I have change to KDE in Slackware64 current, I have not experienced such issues anymore...

besides...

Check this :

http://www.osnews.com/story/12956

BRGDS

Alex
 
Old 01-05-2010, 10:46 AM   #42
a4z
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexvader View Post
besides...

Check this :

http://www.osnews.com/story/12956
this is old
you may also find an article about that Linus switched away from kde (with some nice words) cause of the problems when kde 4.x was not so useful (< 4.3.2)
 
Old 01-05-2010, 10:54 AM   #43
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexvader View Post
...Would you kindly define "illegal" ?
The issue is important, because it pertains to "whose interests" the "law" is purported to protect...
Way off topic, but regardless of all the FUD you've thrown at it and all the fairy tales that come from airbus, Boeing has never asked the U.S. government to fund a commercial aircraft project they couldn't otherwise afford to build. If airbus had to compete on a level playing field they would have folded years ago and, perhaps, McDonnell/Douglas would still be around and Lockheed would still be making commercial airliners. Hard to compete with a company like airbus that doesn't have to worry about making a profit because England, France, Germany, and Spain are always there to pick up the tab.

"Airbus Subsidies Have Destroyed Thousands of U.S. Jobs
Author: Loren B. Thompson, Ph.D.
Date: Monday, December 21, 2009

In a few days, the world's two major producers of commercial transports (jet airliners) will release their order and delivery results for 2009. The results will show that European champion Airbus delivered slightly over 50% of all planes built, while greatly exceeding American champion Boeing in the number of new planes ordered. It's been going this way pretty much since the decade began, because after 40 years of subsidies from European governments, Airbus now has a complete family of transports that can aggressively compete in virtually any capacity/range category with Boeing.

In 1990, U.S. commercial transport producers had an 85% share of the global market and Airbus had a mere 15%. But as Airbus leveraged subsidies to aggressively price its planes and expand offerings, U.S. producers gradually lost ground. Lockheed exited the business in the 1980s. McDonnell Douglas effectively gave up in the 1990s. Boeing saw its market share fall from over 60% to under 50% in the current decade. As a result of these setbacks, tens of thousands of American aerospace jobs disappeared, and tens of billions of dollars in export earnings were lost.

This posting isn't about why policymakers should take illegal subsidies into account in comparing the Airbus and Boeing planes being proposed as a future Air Force tanker. I'll talk about that some other time. It's about something more basic: a political system that is so insular and disorganized that it allows its great industries to be destroyed one by one through unfair, anti-competitive behavior without even noticing, much less acting. We have seen similar decay in steel, in electronics, in shipbuilding, in chemicals, in paper and in autos -- and the net result is that America now runs a trade deficit in manufactured goods of over a billion dollars per day. Needless to say, this has not been a positive development for the U.S. dollar's role a reserve currency.

What bothers me, and no doubt Boeing, is how European governments have been allowed to deliberately and systematically destroy America's global lead in jet airliners without any real sense of outrage in Washington. The European governments and Airbus routinely issue dishonest statements about how Boeing gets unfair assistance too, but when the time came to lodge a case with the World Trade Organization, they didn't even allege that Boeing gets the kind of launch aid that has enabled Airbus to undercut Boeing on price. Instead, they referred to more modest types of aid that Airbus gets too.

The lesson of all this is that when countries have been Number One in the world for as long as America has, it takes a while to grasp that the global alignment of power is changing. We were indifferent when Japan kicked American auto companies out so Toyota would have a protected home market, and we were barely aware when China built up its steel industry to five times the size of ours. But if we don't start getting our act together on demanding fair treatment of our exporters -- starting with Boeing -- then we shall not be Number One for much longer.

Loren B. Thompson, Ph.D.
http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/airbus-s...?a=1&c=1171

Last edited by cwizardone; 01-05-2010 at 10:56 AM.
 
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:23 AM   #44
Alexvader
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Hi Cwizardone

This was not FUD... all I refered to are FACTS about contemporary Nineteenth and Twentieth History, and a small but nonetheless legitimate question :

Who should "Have it all"...?

Yes, who...? Americans, Chinese, Europeans, Japanese, Africans... ?

Who shoud be allowed to pollute the air and water for the sole sake of Indsutrial

profit... ?

I think that you would agree with me that ( despite the fact that we belong to different cultures and have different perspectives of what are the "conveniences" in International Trade, notions of Equity, Justice and Right are not strange concepts in both our cultures )
the "strength" of an agreement, like any one issued from the WTO for instance, is determined by the willingness of the vinculated parts to adhere to it.

In Short :

If an agreement causes mass unemployment, social convolutions, and massive economical damage to a Nation, wether it is America, Japan, EU ( I refer to EU as a "Nation" beacuse there is a common policy in trade ), China, is it morally correct to expect that Nation to still adhere to such an agreement...?

You see... in a globalized world where Finantial high-risk operations whose profit belongs to a few, and whose failure belongs to "every one else", like it happened with the consequences of the "subprime crisis" it is a bit of a complex issue to say that maket shares "belong" to A or B, IMHO.

What has American Finantial System done to the world Economy...?


BRGDS

Alex

Last edited by Alexvader; 01-05-2010 at 11:33 AM.
 
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:27 AM   #45
Didier Spaier
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Hi Cwizardone

Sadly for me, you shouldn't fear competition with Europe as much as with Asia.

As long as Chinese government will be eager to buy all bonds emitted by American Treasury and thus fund US deficit (at their own citizens' expense), you'll be able to keep American Way of Life.

But who knows how long this will last

Best regards,
 
1 members found this post helpful.
  


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