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Old 07-12-2012, 05:51 PM   #16
ruario
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@Mercury305: Red Hat is certainly more complex. Have you looked at rpm's packaging tools? Some .spec files are insane. Also Red Hat still prefers its own configuration tools over configuring the system via text files. Additionally it is Red Hat who introduce stuff like systemd (Fedora is really a testing ground for the next Red Hat version).

All that said, it is irrelevant. If you end up applying for a job where the company runs Red Hat, you are gonna have to learn Red Hat.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:53 PM   #17
gezley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
See this is an example of the type of replies I am trying to avoid. "dont worry about the distro choice"... No, I am worrying about what distro I want to invest my time in and I have many reasons why. I am confused between Slack and Redhat and I just need help choosing thats all.
To me this kind of question is just no longer relevant, now that virtualization can be had for free even on the average desktop. I just fail to understand why people don't invest a weekend learning how to set up virtual machines and running all of the OSes they want - simultaneously or otherwise. I can run 20+ virtual machines on my machine no problem - Slackware; Scientific Linux (RH clone); multiple instances of NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD; Debian; Windows. OK my machine has a reasonable spec with 8GB of RAM but I presume you don't have an old box if you're able to stick CentOS on it, and if you intend becoming an IT professional.

Why don't you just run some or all of these OSes on your system and learn the whole lot? Create a few virtual machines and put them on a virtual network and SSH or VNC or RDP or XDMCP into them and learn the lot. And if you don't have hardware virtualization support in your CPU/motherboard just run Xen, which will allow you to run paravirtualised machines at near-native speed without a virtualization-friendly CPU in sight.

With something like TightVNC on these machines you don't even need X running on them - just on the host. A week of intensive learning with KVM or Xen will stand you in good stead and more importantly allow you to bury these futile dilemmas where they belong in 2012. In all likelihood you have hardware in front of you that's capable of running multiple OSes simultaneously. Use it.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:56 PM   #18
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
No, I am worrying about what distro I want to invest my time in and I have many reasons why. I am confused between Slack and Redhat and I just need help choosing thats all.
My company (http://www.microlinux.fr) provides 100 % Linux and FOSS solutions for town halls, public libraries, schools and small companies. If you want to work as a professional, you just have to know your way around at least the major distros, at least RHEL/CentOS and Debian (in addition to Slackware, of course). I've been using Slackware for a few years, even on client's production machines. Our local school here is running two Slackware servers with twenty Slackware clients (complete with centralized authentication via NIS+NFS). I'm currently taking a forced break on Slackware because my editor wants me to do an update of my 530-page book on Linux (http://tinyurl.com/no254g). The first edition was based on CentOS, and they wanted to know if I could base the second edition on Debian. I complied, and since I think it's best to eat your own dog food, decided to use it on a daily basis. Oh, and my last client (a geophysical calculation office) wanted me to design a calculation machine for them. The software (edited by Halliburton) is only certified - and only runs on - 64bit Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.x.

"Learning Linux" is like learning to drive a car or a motorcycle. You don't learn to drive one single model, you just have to know your way around all of them. With motorcycles, you'll even notice that when you have driven two dozen of very different models (from enduro to hypersports) you'll learn something from every single specific bike you drive.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 05:56 PM   #19
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruario View Post
@Mercury305: Red Hat is certainly more complex. Have you looked at rpm's packaging tools? Some .spec files are insane. Also Red Hat still prefers its own configuration tools over configuring the system via text files. Additionally it is Red Hat who introduce stuff like systemd (Fedora is really a testing ground for the next Red Hat version).

All that said, it is irrelevant. If you end up applying for a job where the company runs Red Hat, you are gonna have to learn Red Hat.
See thats the type of answer I was looking for. I am not too aware of rpm's technicalities since I am not too familiar with rpm. But I know that deb packages create a big mess from personal experience. Anyways, I have to go take my gf out to her birthday. But I will read your replies when I get a chance back. Thanks.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 05:56 PM   #20
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
So why is my question so difficult to answer?
Because:
1) There is no universally admitted definition of what "complexity" means.
2) So between two things two people could easily disagree about which one is more complex.

Let me apply to complexity what Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull said about competence in The Peter Principle:
"Complexity, as well as beauty and contact lenses, lies in the eye of the observer."

Other than that I fully agree with what ruario and TobiSGD wrote, I am only sad that my English language level don't allow me to state it as clearly as they did.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 07-12-2012 at 05:58 PM.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 05:57 PM   #21
ruario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
I guess I value my time... Something that happens when you get older... I cant just spend my time with all different distros hopping from 1 to the next... Its time consuming. I just want to get to the point... Thats all. But if you can't answer my question on "simplicity betwen Redhat and Slackware" then I can understand and move on to find out my self by trying both and wasting more time...
At the end of the day it was always going to be you who has to make a final choice. Furthermore I agree there isn't much else to say. Since you don't like the responses, you are best off working it out for yourself.

P.S. You can drop the condescending "Something that happens when you get older" comments. I read your intro and I am older than you.

Last edited by ruario; 07-13-2012 at 06:44 AM. Reason: Reworded my response, my original was too harsh; added a comment about age
 
Old 07-12-2012, 06:00 PM   #22
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
But I know that deb packages create a big mess from personal experience.
No, deb packages don't create a big mess. Only bad sysadmins who don't RTFM. I suggest you buy at least half a dozen books about Debian (mine are mostly in german and French, so I won't recommend them to you), then you work through ALL of them, take notes, try out all the examples, and then you eventually revise your statement.

rpm/yum, dpkg/aptitude, pkgtools/slackpkg are not "better" or "less good". Just different approaches. Learn to use them all, then compare.

PS : of course, YMMV. Advice coming from the guy who read the Slackbook on his honeymoon back in 2005.

Last edited by kikinovak; 07-12-2012 at 06:03 PM.
 
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:01 PM   #23
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
Because:
1) There is no universally admitted definition of what "complexity" means.
2) So between two things two people could easily disagree about which one is more complex.

Let me apply to complexity what Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull said about competence in The Peter Principle:
"Complexity, as well as beauty and contact lenses, lies in the eye of the observer."

Other than that I fully agree with what ruario and TobiSGD wrote, I am only sad that my English language level don't allow me to state it as clearly as they did.
I think you are complexing simplicity! Its really not that complex to say what is more simple when you can understand the system (unlike my novice skills).
Anyways I have to go I liked your other response and will read it when I have the time. Thanks.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 06:04 PM   #24
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
No, deb packages don't create a big mess. Only bad sysadmins who don't RTFM. I suggest you buy at least half a dozen books about Debian (mine are mostly in german and French, so I won't recommend them to you), then you work through ALL of them, take notes, try out all the examples, and then you eventually revise your statement.

rpm/yum, dpkg/aptitude, pkgtools/slackpkg are not "better" or "less good". Just different approaches. Learn to use them all, then compare.

PS : of course, YMMV. Advice coming from the guy who read the Slackbook on his honeymoon back in 2005.
reading half a dozen books to understand the deb system is complex.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 06:10 PM   #25
Bazzaah
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To answer the question in the thread title - for me, Slack's not difficult to use since I don't really have to do much, if anything, to keep it working. Everything works. It's not complex to set up. In fact, it's installer is easy-peasy and setting up wireless is really simple too.

Perhaps you might best be served by trying different distros. See which you prefer. There's a wealth of choice out there. Learn bash scripting or some Python and make some tools for yourself. Learn about permissions and how to fix permissions problems if they get messed up. IN a way it doesn't matter which distro you use to learn that stuff; the important thing is making the right choices in what you learn and how you go about learning. Read the rute book and the slackbook.

What is better - driving lessons or the colour yellow? Your choice.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 06:54 PM   #26
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
reading half a dozen books to understand the deb system is complex.
Books about Debian (CentOS, RHEL, Slackware, Ubuntu, $DISTRO) contain maybe a chapter about package management. And then many other chapters about all the things you will need if you really want to become a sysadmin, as you said. Apache, MySQL, iptables, Bash scripting, NFS, Samba, CUPS, NTP, NIS, LDAP, SSH, FreeNX, DNS, DHCP, ..., the list can go on for a few lines before it actually ends at the bare minimum.

If you think six books are too much, consider that a sysadmin spends probably most of his time reading documentation.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 09:46 PM   #27
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
Books about Debian (CentOS, RHEL, Slackware, Ubuntu, $DISTRO) contain maybe a chapter about package management. And then many other chapters about all the things you will need if you really want to become a sysadmin, as you said. Apache, MySQL, iptables, Bash scripting, NFS, Samba, CUPS, NTP, NIS, LDAP, SSH, FreeNX, DNS, DHCP, ..., the list can go on for a few lines before it actually ends at the bare minimum.

If you think six books are too much, consider that a sysadmin spends probably most of his time reading documentation.
I dont want to be a sys admin though. But thanks. I just want a stable and simple system for developing server based software.

Last edited by Mercury305; 07-12-2012 at 10:03 PM.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 09:55 PM   #28
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by Bazzaah View Post
To answer the question in the thread title - for me, Slack's not difficult to use since I don't really have to do much, if anything, to keep it working. Everything works. It's not complex to set up. In fact, it's installer is easy-peasy and setting up wireless is really simple too.

Perhaps you might best be served by trying different distros. See which you prefer. There's a wealth of choice out there. Learn bash scripting or some Python and make some tools for yourself. Learn about permissions and how to fix permissions problems if they get messed up. IN a way it doesn't matter which distro you use to learn that stuff; the important thing is making the right choices in what you learn and how you go about learning. Read the rute book and the slackbook.

What is better - driving lessons or the colour yellow? Your choice.
Yea im basically down between centOS and Slack from my experience with the other distros. I am kind of stuck between the 2 and it seems my best bet is to use each one some more to understand because it rubs people the wrong way when I try to get their opinion on it. I just want something based on Simplicity and Stable... The support is just a plus. But thanks for giving me your opinions. Im definitely planning on bash scripting and python.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:00 PM   #29
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
My company (http://www.microlinux.fr) provides 100 % Linux and FOSS solutions for town halls, public libraries, schools and small companies. If you want to work as a professional, you just have to know your way around at least the major distros, at least RHEL/CentOS and Debian (in addition to Slackware, of course). I've been using Slackware for a few years, even on client's production machines. Our local school here is running two Slackware servers with twenty Slackware clients (complete with centralized authentication via NIS+NFS). I'm currently taking a forced break on Slackware because my editor wants me to do an update of my 530-page book on Linux (http://tinyurl.com/no254g). The first edition was based on CentOS, and they wanted to know if I could base the second edition on Debian. I complied, and since I think it's best to eat your own dog food, decided to use it on a daily basis. Oh, and my last client (a geophysical calculation office) wanted me to design a calculation machine for them. The software (edited by Halliburton) is only certified - and only runs on - 64bit Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.x.

"Learning Linux" is like learning to drive a car or a motorcycle. You don't learn to drive one single model, you just have to know your way around all of them. With motorcycles, you'll even notice that when you have driven two dozen of very different models (from enduro to hypersports) you'll learn something from every single specific bike you drive.
I agree I guess I am biased against debian because ubuntu got on my nerves with the deb packages through apt-get and dependencies. I need to just compare centOS and Slackware. I honestly like both and have been getting quite frustrated using it. thanks

Last edited by Mercury305; 07-12-2012 at 10:07 PM.
 
Old 07-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #30
Mercury305
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Originally Posted by ruario View Post
At the end of the day it was always going to be you who has to make a final choice. Furthermore I agree there isn't much else to say. Since you don't like the responses, you are best off working it out for yourself.
Honestly talking about distros is kinda like talking about politics. Its something that rubs people the wrong way... But you are right. From what you told me rpm is more complex then slackpkg so that is definitely something to keep in mind.
 
  


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