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Old 06-03-2008, 12:44 PM   #16
onebuck
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Hi,

'H' I think your biased towards Slackware!

We expect and get a great OS with Slackware because we have to know the inner workings. That way if need be we just crank/tweak what is necessary to get things going. With the *buntus' you cannot work at the level we desire without jumping through the layers. I know people who say *buntu the easiest by far for a newbie. Things are just transparent to them, the distro guru try to get things right but fall short on some systems with their methodology.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 01:14 PM   #17
digger95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
And many things are not put where they should be, which caused problems when I tried to install some software and compile programs.
That's my take as well.

I honestly think Ubuntu is a great distro for Windows users who are looking to get their feet wet in Linux (many of whom end up moving to other distros like Slackware anyway). But when I sit down in front of an Ubuntu machine myself, I just can't find anything where it's supposed to be. Is that one of the reasons Slackware is considered more Unix-like? Because the directory structure is preserved?

Dig
 
Old 06-03-2008, 01:34 PM   #18
[stinger]
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I've tried Ubuntu and Debian and did not like them much myself. The only non-Slack distro I ever liked alot was Suse 8.2, which I stuck with for some time on my server - even after moving to Slackware on the desktop.

Even though I do not use Ubuntu, it still makes my life difficult. With so many new users taking up with Ubuntu, a majority of the hits you get now when googling a problem are posts by Ubuntu users, which are more often than not totally useless to me. There are some good solutions posted at times but too many are - "just apt-get ugrade all" - or some other useless blurb.

To honest, many of the best non-Slack howtos or explanations I've found were posted by Gentoo users. The Gentoo Wiki has saved my ass many a time.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 01:52 PM   #19
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post

'H' I think your biased towards Slackware!
I think it's mostly because, after trying nearly every distro in existence (not quite, but close, I have now a 1/2 shelf at least 1 cubic foot full of bad distros, now some are coasters, but many are just distros I've tried and chunked in there). Almost every other distro sucks in comparison, IMHO of course after much experimentation. I have yet to try LFS fully as it takes a while. However, I doubt I could keep an LFS system up for regular usage for very long, it takes too long to upgrade things completely manually. With Slackware the hard work is put on Pat V. and knowledgeable contributers, without them, indeed there would not be Slackware. I'll subscribe as soon as I start earning my own money ... it'll take while, but they'll get it, I won't forget
 
Old 06-03-2008, 01:57 PM   #20
adriv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [stinger] View Post
Even though I do not use Ubuntu, it still makes my life difficult. With so many new users taking up with Ubuntu, a majority of the hits you get now when googling a problem are posts by Ubuntu users, which are more often than not totally useless to me. There are some good solutions posted at times but too many are - "just apt-get ugrade all" - or some other useless blurb.

To honest, many of the best non-Slack howtos or explanations I've found were posted by Gentoo users. The Gentoo Wiki has saved my ass many a time.
I agree. Very recognizable.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 02:46 PM   #21
brianL
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One of my regular browsing sites is:

http://del.icio.us/tag/

and if you check out the Linux entries, most of them are about Ubuntu. It's a two-edged sword: it's made more people aware of Linux, but it's in danger of overshadowing all the other distros.
 
Old 06-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #22
shadin
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I haven't been here in awhile but this made me laugh. When I was first trying out Linux, I opted for Slackware as one of my first distributions. I'd been on Microsoft operating systems since DOS 5.0, and all I had to do was read the instructions and my machine was up and running.

It's really not that hard... you have to read the manual for your car when you want to do something unfamiliar, why do people expect computers to be different?
 
Old 06-03-2008, 10:32 PM   #23
shadowsnipes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadin View Post
I haven't been here in awhile but this made me laugh. When I was first trying out Linux, I opted for Slackware as one of my first distributions. I'd been on Microsoft operating systems since DOS 5.0, and all I had to do was read the instructions and my machine was up and running.

It's really not that hard... you have to read the manual for your car when you want to do something unfamiliar, why do people expect computers to be different?
As far as I know, most people have to take a test in order to legally drive on their own, but there are plenty of computer-ignorant people who use PCs on their own- often to the destruction of others on their network.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 01:56 PM   #24
trickykid
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I hate the fact that people are scared of a text based installer over a GUI one. From what I experienced, the only difference is the lack of graphics. The text based installer is still menus you can navigate through, select what you want and then proceed with the next step. Do people really find it daunting when an installer doesn't have a mouse pointer involved? Even Windows installs are mostly text based, well, at least 2000 was. I haven't really installed or used Windows since then.
 
Old 06-05-2008, 02:43 PM   #25
hua
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Just to have a little fun:
The information spreading over the network that how difficult it is to set up the Slackware Linux caused me to set up my first Linux from Floppies: boot, root1, root2.
I just suspected some really difficult process and the raw-write of those floppies on WinXP that was. I didn't even dreamed about that it is as simple as download two iso images (cd1, cd2 for slackware 10.2) burned them, and boot to setup.

You can imagine, when I found out that there are those CD images...
 
Old 06-05-2008, 07:59 PM   #26
shadowsnipes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickykid View Post
I hate the fact that people are scared of a text based installer over a GUI one. From what I experienced, the only difference is the lack of graphics. The text based installer is still menus you can navigate through, select what you want and then proceed with the next step. Do people really find it daunting when an installer doesn't have a mouse pointer involved? Even Windows installs are mostly text based, well, at least 2000 was. I haven't really installed or used Windows since then.
Those are probably the same people that can't modify BIOS settings and just pull the plug out of the socket when something freezes.

The good thing is that all you have to do to keep these people from installing another OS is to turn off booting from any removable devices from the BIOS. For extra fun you can take a screen shot of their desktop, set it as the background, and then move all of its contents to a different folder. This takes care of the mouse problem because it gets clicked so long and hard on those "desktop icons" that it (mouse/user) gives up. Of course you could leave a real shortcut for the command prompt

unclutter is also a nifty little program to keep the rat in check. Watch out for people screaming "My computer ate my mouse!"
 
Old 06-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #27
T3slider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsnipes
The good thing is that all you have to do to keep these people from installing another OS is to turn off booting from any removable devices from the BIOS.
Install Slackware, disable booting from removable devices in the BIOS, set a BIOS password, and if they ever ask for Windows, or another distro to be put back on there, tell them it's impossible. Let them try it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsnipes
For extra fun you can take a screen shot of their desktop, set it as the background, and then move all of its contents to a different folder. This takes care of the mouse problem because it gets clicked so long and hard on those "desktop icons" that it (mouse/user) gives up. Of course you could leave a real shortcut for the command prompt
I NEED to try that some time. I know SO many people that would start getting über-frustrated...(stop giving me ideas!)
 
Old 06-06-2008, 04:07 AM   #28
piete
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Kudos to Caitlyn for recognising the debate was well handled, and kudos to the participants for keeping it so!

Having an opinion is part of being human (imho, haha). I recommend Slackware to people close to me, or something like OpenSuSE or Ubuntu to people who want to try it out but who I don't know very well ... why? Because when it comes down to it I know that regardless of their technical level I don't mind getting phone calls from my close friends, but I do mind being harassed by many strangers to fix their problems It's a matter of support - I know Slack best, so make sure that if they want to run Linux and want me to help, they do it my way.

Some have even learned to stand on their own two feet and are perfectly at home themselves. I still get the occasional phone call mind

I think the real irony is some people would fair better with something else, but I don't have inclination to learn anything else let alone support it, so really the problem is mine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsnipes
As far as I know, most people have to take a test in order to legally drive on their own, but there are plenty of computer-ignorant people who use PCs on their own
I was thinking of this quote, and wondered about it's parallels in the PC world. Is OS installation actually part of the user experience (like steering and changing gear), or should we be expected to take it into the garage when we want to get the engine changed? Not sure. Depends how pricey your car is, probably

As an interesting aside, over here we have something called the ECDL, European Computer Driving License (more info here http://www.ecdl.org ) so maybe it won't be long before you start seeing L-plates on your less computer literate colleagues' workstations!

- Piete.
 
Old 06-06-2008, 02:38 PM   #29
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piete View Post
As an interesting aside, over here we have something called the ECDL, European Computer Driving License (more info here http://www.ecdl.org ) so maybe it won't be long before you start seeing L-plates on your less computer literate colleagues' workstations!

- Piete.
Interesting link, but I'm wondering if they are OS aware. I mean in that the apps they do their training with are not only M$ Word, Excel, Distiller, etc. Who am I kidding, of course it's gonna be that.
 
Old 06-06-2008, 08:22 PM   #30
piete
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I couldn't find anything skimming through their site which says what they use, because the site is the awarding body I think. To carry on the analogy they have test centres, which will be equipped with certain programs. I found one linux article (top hit for google "ecdl linux") that suggests from a technical stand point if you can demonstrate your test centre fulfils the requirements, then you can use FOSS programs instead of proprietry ones.

So I dug around a bit and found Ingots: http://www.theingots.org/ . Similar idea, except they state explicitly that they've based their work on FOSS programs, and even give you course credit for finding and installing them! At least, that's how I read it.

From their "Reduced costs" foldout:

Quote:
To achieve INGOT qualifications, there is no need to use any software where licenses have to be bought (although you can if you want to) We give practical help, advice and information on getting and using free digital resources from the internet and credit for learning how to do this through the qualifications.
The theme here seems to be "Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime". Is teaching everyone how to use OOo instead of Word a step in the right direction? Are they doing both? Or merely whatever you happen to have installed?

Heh, I think I won't stir that barrel of snakes!

Apologies for the thread derailing - now we resume your normal programming ...
- Piete.
 
  


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