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Old 06-03-2013, 11:39 PM   #361
elvis4526
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ReaperX7 honestly, you are incredible.

I don't want to reply to all your statements again, but here's the most wrong:

Quote:
For us, Init systems like SysVInit, OpenRC, and BSDInit have been extremely reliable, because for the most part, they all use the same scripts in plaintext.
Did you ever diff for example the apache startup script from Debian with the one from Slackware ?
Besides being written in shell, they have NOTHING in common.
Service file from systemd are (or should be) completely IDENTICAL in all distro since all the logic behind the service file is handled by systemd itself.
Then the chore of making a "startup script" can be relayed upstream.
This is ineeded removing some weight of the package shoulders.
Yes, shell script are plain text file like all the services file from systemd.

Last edited by elvis4526; 06-03-2013 at 11:44 PM.
 
Old 06-03-2013, 11:44 PM   #362
ttk
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As a professional datacenter-scale software engineer and sometimes system administrator, I have to say that Erik and ReaperX7 have nailed my concerns precisely, much more eloquently than I could.

The nature of reliability changes as a system scales up.

Consider: When The Internet Archive switched from using debian-stable to debian-unstable, it encountered a problem with the forcedeth ethernet driver. About one time in twenty, a system would hang on boot.

Not a big deal, right? Right, until 2000 servers lost power and had to come back up.

They would all come up .. except for a hundred servers, give or take. These would have to be located and cold-booted again.

So those would come up .. except perhaps for four or six, which would have to be located and cold-booted again.

The Archive's datacenter isn't even that large. There are plenty of companies out there sporting tens of thousands of servers.

They don't need unreliable code in the init system, and new code is unreliable code.

Last edited by ttk; 06-03-2013 at 11:48 PM.
 
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:49 PM   #363
elvis4526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
As a professional datacenter-scale software engineer and sometimes system administrator, I have to say that Erik and ReaperX7 have nailed my concerns precisely, much more eloquently than I could.

The nature of reliability changes as a system scales up.

Consider: When The Internet Archive switched from using debian-stable to debian-unstable, it encountered a problem with the forcedeth ethernet driver. About one time in a fifty, a system would hang on boot.

Not a big deal, right? Right, until 2000 servers lost power and had to come back up.

They would all come up .. except for forty servers, give or take. These would have to be located and cold-booted again.

So those would come up .. except perhaps for one or two, which would have to be located and cold-booted again.

The Archive's datacenter isn't even that large. There are plenty of companies out there sporting tens of thousands of servers.

They don't need unreliable code in the init system, and new code is unreliable code.
Okay you say systemd code is unreliable.
Well I say sysvinit isn't more reliable.
This discussion is so constructive.
 
Old 06-03-2013, 11:53 PM   #364
ttk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
Okay you say systemd code is unreliable.
Well I say sysvinit isn't more reliable.
This is wrong. The more a codebase is used, the more of its bugs become revealed. If developers focus more on bugfixing than new feature development, they will eventually fix more bugs than they create, resulting in more-reliable code.

This implies that sysvinit should be extremely reliable, and that is precisely what is observed in the real world.

Quote:
This discussion is so constructive.
It's not bad, but I'm starting to see the point of those who consider you a troll. I should stop feeding you.
 
Old 06-03-2013, 11:57 PM   #365
elvis4526
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Quote:
This is wrong. The more a codebase is used, the more of its bugs become revealed. If developers focus more on bugfixing than new feature development, they will eventually fix more bugs than they create, resulting in more-reliable code.
Of course you are totally right.
This means that Windows is a lot more reliable then GNU/Linux since Windows is used by so much more people therefore more of its bug got fixed by microsoft engineers with reports from users.

I'm totally with you on this buddy.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:04 AM   #366
elvis4526
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I like when people bring troll as an argument.
Someone isn't a troll because his opinion differ from yours.
It doesn't work like that sorry.
Everything in life isn't black or white.

Oh and ReaperX7, you said to me that you weren't a programmer at all.
Then, how can you say that systemd is "bloated" if you don't know shit about C, besides repeating what you heard everywhere on the web like a sheep ?
I'm curious really.

Last edited by elvis4526; 06-04-2013 at 12:08 AM.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:08 AM   #367
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
This means that Windows is a lot more reliable then GNU/Linux since Windows is used by so much more people therefore more of its bug got fixed by microsoft engineers with reports from users.
Nice try, but you missed the point.

Your aggressive defence of systemd is really off-putting. Anyhow, I think I read somewhere in the mess above that you don't even use Slackware... so why do you insist on hanging around here and antagonising people?

There has been entirely too much vitriol from both sides in this "debate." Enough already.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:13 AM   #368
ReaperX7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
ReaperX7 honestly, you are incredible.

I don't want to reply to all your statements again, but here's the most wrong:



Did you ever diff for example the apache startup script from Debian with the one from Slackware ?
Besides being written in shell, they have NOTHING in common.
Service file from systemd are (or should be) completely IDENTICAL in all distro since all the logic behind the service file is handled by systemd itself.
Then the chore of making a "startup script" can be relayed upstream.
This is ineeded removing some weight of the package shoulders.
Yes, shell script are plain text file like all the services file from systemd.
Who cares about Debian? Much less who cares about any specific distribution of Linux for that matter? I could give a rat's fat arse about Debian's Apache shell scripts versus Slackware's? There's two fundamentally different systems using two variants of an Init system. Slackware uses BSD Stylized SysVInit scripts while Debian uses classic SysVInit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
I like when people bring troll as an argument.
Someone isn't a troll because his opinion differ from yours.
It doesn't work like that sorry.
Everything in life isn't black or white.

Oh and ReaperX7, you said to me that you weren't a programmer at all.
Then, how can you say that systemd is "bloated" if you don't know shit about C, besides repeating what you heard everywhere on the web like a sheep ?
I'm curious really.
System Administrators ARE NOT PROGRAMMERS!!! We don't give a rat's fat arse about learning C code. yes, if I knew it's I'd help, but WHO CARES!?!

Last edited by ReaperX7; 06-04-2013 at 12:15 AM.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:16 AM   #369
elvis4526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Nice try, but you missed the point.

Your aggressive defence of systemd is really off-putting. Anyhow, I think I read somewhere in the mess above that you don't even use Slackware... so why do you insist on hanging around here and antagonising people?

There has been entirely too much vitriol from both sides in this "debate." Enough already.
I'm open to make a kind and calm discussion but it is not possible when people comes claiming something totally false like: "Sysvinit use plaintext configuration file unlike systemd"; right into my face.

I didn't made a lot of claim about sysvinit.
Why?
Because I didn't tinker with it like I did with systemd therefore I don't speak about what I don't know.

All I do is rectifying all the stuff that you claim about systemd when i'm sure half of you didn't even tinker with it.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:17 AM   #370
ReaperX7
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If you don't use Slackware then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE!?!
 
Old 06-04-2013, 12:25 AM   #371
elvis4526
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Quote:
Who cares about Debian?
You may not care about Debian, but it is still the distribution with the biggest number of contributor.
So yeah, a lot of person care about debian.

Quote:
There's two fundamentally different systems using two variants of an Init system.
Here I will quote you:

Quote:
For us, Init systems like SysVInit, OpenRC, and BSDInit have been extremely reliable, because for the most part, they all use the same scripts in plaintext.
You clearly said that all init system that use shell for startup script USE THE SAME SCRIPTS.

Quote:
System Administrators ARE NOT PROGRAMMERS!!! We don't give a rat's fat arse about learning C code. yes, if I knew it's I'd help, but WHO CARES!?!
How can you say systemd is bloated when you don't even know a damn thing C ?
How can you say systemd is bloated without even reading his source code ?

Last edited by elvis4526; 06-04-2013 at 12:27 AM.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 06-04-2013, 01:13 AM   #372
TalonNexaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
If you don't use Slackware then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE!?!
One doesn't need to be a Slackware user to post in the Slackware sub-forum.

Also, you really seem to be emotionally invested in this. Seriously, you've got a nasty attitude going on. Wait and see how systemd performs in an enterprise environment before condemning it and its supporters.
 
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:25 AM   #373
elvis4526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalonNexaris View Post
One doesn't need to be a Slackware user to post in the Slackware sub-forum.

Also, you really seem to be emotionally invested in this. Seriously, you've got a nasty attitude going on. Wait and see how systemd performs in an enterprise environment before condemning it and its supporters.
It's simple as that.
 
Old 06-04-2013, 02:25 AM   #374
ruario
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@TalonNexaris: Whilst I agree this thread is way too heated and emotional that sentence could easily be flipped around,

Wait and see how systemd performs in an enterprise environment before praising it and its supporters.
 
3 members found this post helpful.
Old 06-04-2013, 02:33 AM   #375
fgcl2k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
I'm open to make a kind and calm discussion but it is not possible when people comes claiming something totally false like: "Sysvinit use plaintext configuration file unlike systemd"; right into my face.
I think you are missing one point; sysvinit is not only configured through plain text files, it is also implemented through shell scripts (text files too). Which means that you can study and modify the configuration AND the scripts, for example to add a new feature customized for your environment. And this can be easy: just add a few lines of code to a shell script. You are not limited to setting some predefined configuration options decided by the developer.
 
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