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Old 06-02-2013, 03:46 PM   #316
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
But then again, systemd is supposedly not really about reducing boot time. I have to admit that after reading some of the documentation, I still don't know what it's supposed to do. It certainly makes Linux look a lot more like Windows, binary logfiles and all, but surely that's not exactly an improvement?
Systemd is aimed to be the Core OS: http://hasgeek.tv/fossdotin/2012-2/1...as-the-core-os
 
Old 06-02-2013, 03:52 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
But that tells us nothing without a comparison to non-systemd boot on same system.

A useful benchmark is a comparison (i.e., context), not a number.
Here you go: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...18_boots&num=1

(TL;DR summary: mixed results)
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:01 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
Here you go: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...18_boots&num=1

(TL;DR summary: mixed results)
The benschmark you linked to compares systemd on Fedora 18 with systemd on Fedora 17, not systemd with other init systems.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:06 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Systemd is aimed to be the Core OS: http://hasgeek.tv/fossdotin/2012-2/1...as-the-core-os
I'm watching the video now, but I have to say it's difficult to be entirely free of prejudice when the message originates from someone who actually thinks logs in binary format is a good idea.

<rant>
I mean, seriously, we've been cursing over the uselessness of the Windows Event Logs since NT 3.1, and only recently has Microsoft introduced features (event subscriptions and the ability to attach tasks to events) that makes it possible to collect events from multiple servers and act on information in these logs. Meanwhile we've all been using 3rd party tools to export them to syslog in order to process them with grep, sed, awk and the like. Which is possible because syslogd writes log entries to text files.

Now systemd turns the clock back 20 years and introduces log files in binary format. Why on earth would anyone want that? Surely, in addition to making it harder to read and process logs, it must break every automated log processing system and host-based IDS/IPS currently in existence?
</rant>

OK, back to the video.
 
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Old 06-02-2013, 04:07 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
Well number are really useful to compare the boot speed against sysvinit since this thread turned in a "Let's say total crap about systemd without any proof".
But that was my point exactly - you did NOT "compare" any numbers.

And in this post I did not say anything "crap" about systemd, only about the utter uselessness of the "number" that you posted without any context, no "proof" if you will.

But meanwhile, the best proof and all reasonable statements contrary to systemd posted to this thread, you seem to ignore, or at least not understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
But anyways, you must be right, Lennart is just an evil drug dealer.
I do have an opinion or two about Mr. Poettering, but I did not express them here. To what do you refer? (A rehtorical question, I really don't intend to engage the tar baby).

Like I said... stranger and stranger...
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:09 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
Well, that just can't be done with servers, I'm afraid. A number of processes takes longer to initialize than 2 seconds, and some depend on other services which also take a few seconds to start. For instance, I've found that I need to wait at least 2 seconds after starting libvirtd before I can start a VM.

But then again, systemd is supposedly not really about reducing boot time. I have to admit that after reading some of the documentation, I still don't know what it's supposed to do. It certainly makes Linux look a lot more like Windows, binary logfiles and all, but surely that's not exactly an improvement?
Of course my machine is a desktop machine, so I don't have any kind of server-related installed on it.
I'd like to know what services you have in mind when you say they can't be started at the same time.
There are very few of them but some are very obvious of course.
For instance you cannot start KDM before mounting your root partition.

But no, systemd isn't really about reducing boot time, it's just a side effect of doing things right.
Binary may seem evil at first glance, but they are not. It's actually a lot more powerful then what syslog offer (as far as i know). Here's a quick overview:


journalctl -b => Display the log from last boot only
journalctl -r => Display entries from the log in reverse. So you get at the beginning what happened at the end of the log.
journalctl -u $unitname => Display log entry for this daemon only.
journalctl --since=$date or journalctl --until=$date => Display entries in the log that ar newer or older then the specified date.
journalctl --disk-usage => Shows the current dis usage of all log files.

You can almost combine every option too.
And there is a lot more, this is just a quick overview of the nice thing that journalctl can do for you.
Application can log error in journalctl too, it's nice too have a all logging in the same place (eventually it'll be I hope )

Last edited by elvis4526; 06-02-2013 at 04:13 PM.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:12 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
But that was my point exactly - you did NOT "compare" any numbers.

And in this post I did not say anything "crap" about systemd, only about the utter uselessness of the "number" that you posted without any context, no "proof" if you will.

But meanwhile, the best proof and all reasonable statements contrary to systemd posted to this thread, you seem to ignore, or at least not understand.



I do have an opinion or two about Mr. Poettering, but I did not express them here. To what do you refer? (A rehtorical question, I really don't intend to engage the tar baby).

Like I said... stranger and stranger...
Yes, you are right on this one.
It's just that it is a PITA to do some boot time benchmarking on sysvinit.
There's the fact that I don't have any sysvinit machine in my hand right now too.

Did you ever read the signature of ReaperX7 ?
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:13 PM   #323
ttk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
Binary may seem evil at first glance, but they are not. It's actually a lot more powerful then what syslog offer (as far as i know). Here's a quick overview:

journalctl -b => Display the log from last boot only
journalctl -r => Display entries from the log in reverse. So you get at the beginning what happened at the end of the log.
journalctl -u $unitname => Display log entry for this daemon only.
journalctl --since=$date or journalctl --until=$date => Display entries in the log that ar newer or older then the specified date.
journalctl --disk-usage => Shows the current dis usage of all log files.
All of these things can be done with text logs, with standard UNIX tools like grep, sort, awk, and find.

That the developer chose to re-implement existing functionality suggests to me they didn't know it was already there. That doesn't bode well for them.

Last edited by ttk; 06-02-2013 at 04:15 PM.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:19 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
All of these things can be done with text logs, with standard UNIX tools like grep, sort, awk, and find.

That the developer chose to re-implement existing functionality suggests to me they didn't know it was already there. That doesn't bode well for them.
Yeah, you can implement all this with shell script for sure but:

1) I'm not a C programmer, but isn't shell script slower then C ?

2) It's available natively with systemd which in my opinion is better then hacking a couple of shell script.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
On Arch Linux my total boot time is exactly 3.782 seconds (kernel + userspace), on a ssd of course.
Arch users do it really fast.
 
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Old 06-02-2013, 04:22 PM   #326
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
journalctl -b => Display the log from last boot only
journalctl -r => Display entries from the log in reverse. So you get at the beginning what happened at the end of the log.
journalctl -u $unitname => Display log entry for this daemon only.
journalctl --since=$date or journalctl --until=$date => Display entries in the log that ar newer or older then the specified date.
journalctl --disk-usage => Shows the current dis usage of all log files.
Does this work in a system that I chrooted to or on logs from a not running system that I have mounted from a live-medium?
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:22 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
Arch users do it really fast.
What do you mean?
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:28 PM   #328
elvis4526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Does this work in a system that I chrooted to or on logs from a not running system that I have mounted from a live-medium?
journalctl has a --directory and a --root option, so yeah you could use journalctl against logs from a mounted partition somewhere on your hard drive, if your livecd contains systemd of course.

Not sure about the chroot, but I think systemd-nspawn should be able to handle this.

Last edited by elvis4526; 06-02-2013 at 04:30 PM.
 
Old 06-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #329
ttk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
Yeah, you can implement all this with shell script for sure but:

1) I'm not a C programmer, but isn't shell script slower then C ?

2) It's available natively with systemd which in my opinion is better then hacking a couple of shell script.
I call Strawman Fallacy. These tools (grep, awk, find, sort) are written in C, and have become extremely well-optimized over the years of their development. I never brought up shell scripts.

To reiterate my point: This utility that ships with systemd only re-implements functionality that is already available for text-based logs, using standard UNIX tools.
 
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:50 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
To reiterate my point: This utility that ships with systemd only re-implements functionality that is already available for text-based logs, using standard UNIX tools.
And amen to that!!
I'm sorry, but the wheel has allready been invented - there is no way 'round' will be that much more 'round' that it is worth the change ...
 
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