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Old 05-03-2013, 04:45 PM   #16
BrZ
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Bring back 'ddate'!!! By the way:

Quote:
Today is Pungenday, the 50th day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
Celebrate Discoflux
 
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:18 PM   #17
JWJones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrZ View Post
Bring back 'ddate'!!!
Still here, at least in Slackware!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot-05032013.jpg (164.5 KB, 142 views)
 
Old 05-03-2013, 07:02 PM   #18
BrZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
Still here, at least in Slackware!
I was playing with 'util-linux' and 'ddate' is gone. 'arch' was another victim, but we have 'uname'. I found 'ddate' here. Made a quick and dirty script and now it is back. Readme, slack-desk and a little diff just to look more polished ;]

Last edited by BrZ; 05-03-2013 at 07:03 PM. Reason: add info
 
Old 05-03-2013, 07:04 PM   #19
BrZ
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ps: dobbs.jpg is here
 
Old 05-06-2013, 07:47 AM   #20
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrZ View Post
Bring back 'ddate'!!!
Yeah. This is another RedHat employee killing the fun in Linux because he wants to force his personal irritations upon the world. See http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lin...a.devel/153118 ... complete discussion http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-...d-rawhide.html

Eric
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #21
Celyr
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If Slackware will ever use systemd (and I'm not against it) it will be easy to use.
Have faith!
 
Old 05-06-2013, 04:01 PM   #22
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Systemd is a nightmare for Linux admins because it offers nothing fluid against what is already there. All it does it add layers of complexity that are unnecessary to a system that isn't broken or needs fixing in the first place. If you want to say a piece of software needs fixing... let's talk about how broken to sh*t udev is and how it replaced a perfectly working hotplug, hal, and devfs system. Do we really need or want a daemon tool like systemd that uses a broken piece of software like udev?

Red Hat honestly needs to just die. I'm sorry, but these guys are not UNIX friendly people and with each new developer trying to establish their way in things as Eric posted, it gets worse and worse. Red Hat is like a festering cancer Linux has had for so long. Sure it seemed nice in the end making Linux marketable, but when the cancer starts spreading and affecting other sections of the body poisoning it, time to operate and cut out the lump.

In all seriousness... I really wish someone would have the balls to fork the Linux kernel, tear out all this broken bullsh*t mess like udev, and bring back tried and true, stable software.

In all seriousness, I'm sick of udev. I really didn't care for it in the beginning, and I care even less about it now.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 05-06-2013 at 04:04 PM.
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:41 PM   #23
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After reading everything in this thread, including the linked articles, I changed my sig from:
Quote:
Slackware until death ...or systemd
to what you see below. I still have very strong anti-Pottering feelings (that won't change), and I still really hate how every few years a new crop of dweebs tries to stamp their own stink onto the Linux ecosystem, but I do have faith in our BDFL. Things will work out. I retired that sig because I think it just adds to the noise. For now I'm happy, and guess what? If systemd comes into 15.0, I'll just stay here on 14.0 maybe. I'll become one of the uncool relics of days gone by. I'll be deprecated along with all the great and simple code of the Golden Days of computing. Hell, I might even go back to 13.37 just so I don't have to smell GConf. My hardware only changes every decade or so anyway. There is no other distro. The only place I have to go is BSD. But for now...
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:55 PM   #24
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Yeah. This is another RedHat employee killing the fun in Linux because he wants to force his personal irritations upon the world. See http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lin...a.devel/153118 ... complete discussion http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-...d-rawhide.html
Yeah, that's just one of approximately 1,000,000 reasons I don't use Fedora/RedHat.
 
Old 05-06-2013, 08:39 PM   #25
ReaperX7
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If push comes to shove for me and it boils down to systemd, I'm going to PC-BSD or FreeBSD. I've really had enough of this bullsh*t. First it was uDev which has never worked right, pulseaudio which is downright a travesty, then udisks/udisks2 which are downright anti-system admin, and now systemd which is totally anti-cross compatibility.

Linux is getting poisoned by all this proprietary non-portable software under the guise of open source free software, and either Linus Torvalds is blind to the fact that his UNIX-like kernel is being hijacked into a proprietary OS by the stooges at Red Hat, or he's frankly devolved into a stupor in which he doesn't give a rat's arse anymore.

It's sad to see what Linux and GNU is being turned into, another Windows wanna-be pushed out by another wanna-be Microsoft. At this rate the future of Linux is grim and Linux will end up just like all the other niche-OSes like BeOS, eCommStation, etc. gone and hardly forgotten. I'd be willing to bet that at the rate Free/PC-BSD is chugging along, Free/PC-BSD will be a more stable system in the end trumping Linux.

I'll go along with what one poster said on that talk with Dietrich... fork the damn Linux kernel, rip out the sh*tware, and give Torvalds an ultimatum to either ditch the sh*tware, or else the Linux community revolts.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 05-06-2013 at 09:11 PM.
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:37 PM   #26
elvis4526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
Systemd is a nightmare for Linux admins because it offers nothing fluid against what is already there. All it does it add layers of complexity that are unnecessary to a system that isn't broken or needs fixing in the first place. If you want to say a piece of software needs fixing... let's talk about how broken to sh*t udev is and how it replaced a perfectly working hotplug, hal, and devfs system. Do we really need or want a daemon tool like systemd that uses a broken piece of software like udev?

Red Hat honestly needs to just die. I'm sorry, but these guys are not UNIX friendly people and with each new developer trying to establish their way in things as Eric posted, it gets worse and worse. Red Hat is like a festering cancer Linux has had for so long. Sure it seemed nice in the end making Linux marketable, but when the cancer starts spreading and affecting other sections of the body poisoning it, time to operate and cut out the lump.

In all seriousness... I really wish someone would have the balls to fork the Linux kernel, tear out all this broken bullsh*t mess like udev, and bring back tried and true, stable software.

In all seriousness, I'm sick of udev. I really didn't care for it in the beginning, and I care even less about it now.
In all seriousness, could you please show actual fact instead of saying a ton of totally subjective bullshit like this ?
systemd add a layer of complexity ? Actually it's removing a layer since you don't have to use the shell anymore.
Udev is broken ?
Maybe it is broken for you because you are still using it standalone when upstream doesn't give a fuck about this.
The future of udev is inside systemd. If you will never use systemd because you are too fucking blind, just stop crying and use mdev or nothing at all.
And yeah, Linux is NOT unix. It has a lot of similarities, but I-T I-S N-O-T U-N-I-X.
And despite this, systemd still has a lot in common with the unix philosophy.
One program that do one thing, right ?
Well yeah, if you would have search a little bit, and try to educate yourself before giving such a misinformed opinion, you would have noticed that in fact systemd is splitted across a TON of binaries. Each binaries do one thing.

Could you stop too to speak like it is a Red Hat only project?
Did you even know that the first time that Lennart proposed systemd for inclusion in Fedora, he got rejected ?
Did you know that there is like 16 people with commit access to the systemd repo and only 6 peoples in these are from Red Hat. The others are from Arch Linux, Debian, Mandriva and some other folks.
systemd is an healty project, with contributors from different Linux distribution.

But of course it's a big conspiracy.
I think Red Hat are trying to conquer the world.
Obviously.

Last edited by elvis4526; 05-06-2013 at 09:40 PM.
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:06 PM   #27
torimus
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@ReaperX7
Giving nods what has been stated. It looks like RedHat started to employ lot of young developers without a deep knowledge of unix principles and directs to an aggressive approach and style. I know a few programmers working for the Fedora project and I must admit they are all as*oles except one. Coming from Windows background, bare experience with Linux and Posix systems, but they are cheap and overconfident at the same time.

Remain disappointed working solutions are constantly ditched, rewritten, crippled. So many years have passed after devfs project was abandoned and we are still fighting similar issues with much more complex software. I see no improvements. Even arcane static /dev did worked more reliably and transparently but somebody've had "serious" issues with files to non-existent devices. The same goes for decades proven initscripts BSD/SysV. Although they have some minor quirks, replace them from scratch with more complex, binary, less flexible and own, with nothing compatible configuration system was simply unjustified. Or remeber the KDE project and its peak at latest 3.5 versions. I can understand there was a switch to qt4 but throwing everything away and starting from zero proved to be unfortunate. So many versions of unreliable, partially working, much more bloated piece of s* ... KDE 4. It apparently matured in later incarnations, but lost many users and confidence since. Ownership of the base toolkit and direction of development by Nokia and indirectly by MS just makes things even worse.

Why don't learn from the history, nature and experience. Revolutions never led to an optimal solution, just evolution.

Last edited by torimus; 05-06-2013 at 10:12 PM.
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:50 PM   #28
ReaperX7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
In all seriousness, could you please show actual fact instead of saying a ton of totally subjective bullshit like this ?
Read the articles posted at the front of the topic instead of shooting your mouth off like a jackass. You want to hammer at me like a troll, fine, I'll play your game. I've got nothing really to lose here.

Quote:
systemd add a layer of complexity ? Actually it's removing a layer since you don't have to use the shell anymore.
Udev is broken ?
Systemd requires rebuilding new scripts to startup your systems completely from scratch, even though it says sysvinit scripts are compatible, but Lennart then retracts this in his manifesto and says they aren't.

Removing the need of the shell? Linux and GNU is a shell based operating system, not a GUI driven point-click-and-go. What do think BASH, ZSH, etc. are for? To look pretty and take up space on the drive? Hardly. GNU/Linux is a command-line OS. It always has been.

And udev IS broken, every system maintainer, admin, and many users can attest to this, even those using systemd and even upstart. The rules it creates even on systemd using Linux distributions don't always work right either. This is the udev built into systemd and then stripped back out as it's own toolkit which is it, and it still has many issues that the developers haven't ironed out because they don't know how. Udev was a misguided concept that was a pipedream at best to replace DevFS which worked flawlessly using untested and broken code to create a semi-fluid system of daemon tools to manage the resources in real time, but it can't even write it's own rules correctly. How the hell does that work right if it can't work right at all?

Quote:
Maybe it is broken for you because you are still using it standalone when upstream doesn't give a fuck about this.
The future of udev is inside systemd. If you will never use systemd because you are too fucking blind, just stop crying and use mdev or nothing at all.
You want to know how "fucked up" the "upstream" is? Go use ArchLinux and keep Pacman updated daily and see how long it takes before you have an unstable and unusable system. The upstream only cares about pushing out code flawed or not, and features that aren't tested. That why Patrick devotes so much time and effort into testing the shit out Slackware before upstream stuff comes along. If you have ever wondered why Slackware uses so much vanilla stuff, it's to AVOID endless patchworks and rhetorical bullshit the upstream creates as a backwash.

The udev in systemd has been extracted by various distributions because udev is required as part of the kernel resource management software itself, not the system daemons. Now that udev is merged into systemd, you have the kernel, systemd, and shells like Gnome so closely tied together, getting anything to work independently is a nightmare.

Quote:
And yeah, Linux is NOT unix. It has a lot of similarities, but I-T I-S N-O-T U-N-I-X.
And despite this, systemd still has a lot in common with the unix philosophy.
One program that do one thing, right ?
Well yeah, if you would have search a little bit, and try to educate yourself before giving such a misinformed opinion, you would have noticed that in fact systemd is splitted across a TON of binaries. Each binaries do one thing.
Linux is a POSIX compliant UNIX-like kernel, and yes it's not UNIX, same goes for GNU, but it's foundations are in UNIX and BSD, and even HURD. Don't you dumb noobs ever learn history or do you brush that off like normal accepting what you want as history and tossing the rest in the trashcan?

Systemd spiltting across binaries means it's HIJACKING the system. When you have the shell, GUI, and APIs being controlled by a single entity, it means that if the core of the system fails, systemd in this case, the whole system crashes bringing down everything tied to it.

Doing one thing and doing it well, is a double-edged sword. Systemd does not do everything well. If it did, more developers and maintainers would sign onto it, but obviously, this isn't the case.

Quote:
Could you stop too to speak like it is a Red Hat only project?
Did you even know that the first time that Lennart proposed systemd for inclusion in Fedora, he got rejected ?
Did you know that there is like 16 people with commit access to the systemd repo and only 6 peoples in these are from Red Hat. The others are from Arch Linux, Debian, Mandriva and some other folks.
systemd is an healty project, with contributors from different Linux distribution.

But of course it's a big conspiracy.
I think Red Hat are trying to conquer the world.
Obviously.
Red Hat only proved that Linux could be made profitable, but they do contribute a lot of upstream code into the inner workings of Linux and it's many toolkits and daemons, but the problem is, too many of these up-and-coming developers with no notion as to what is realistic towards the goal of creating a direct alternative to UNIX are scoffing at the UNIX philosophy trying to have their own 15 minutes of fame with software that isn't worth shit.

Big name projects don't often mean they are right. Slackware is the oldest surviving Linux distribution because it does things the right way, stably, and without all the junk, garbage, and bloat as others have. You also, don't get to be the most respected Linux distribution and have a shit-for-brained software developer take a pot-shot get off without some backlash from the community and the software community at large and attacking FreeBSD blatantly without remorse or regards to what all the BSD systems have contributed to open source and even Linux itself. If anything, the Linux kernel itself owes it's existence to 386/BSD and a fatefully timed lawsuit, and owes a lot to GNU and HURD.

Now do you want to act a little less condescending and trollish, or is this going to end up like the other systemd topic in which someone got banned for shooting their mouth off without considering the consequences? Again, in this topic and what I know full well about it, I have nothing to lose.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 05-06-2013 at 10:53 PM.
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:23 PM   #29
STDOUBT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis4526 View Post
Actually it's removing a layer since you don't have to use the shell anymore.
You say that like it's a good thing...
 
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:29 PM   #30
ReaperX7
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Yep, that's exactly the problem. Once you get rid of the shell interface, what do you have a systemd enabled Gnome system only with no terminal?
 
  


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