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Old 08-24-2012, 01:29 PM   #286
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volkerdi View Post
Looking at the link, I see systemd automatically runs fsck when a harddrive is hotplugged. That's a bad idea, IMHO. I'd like some say in the matter before something like that is done. If an external drive needs checking, I think I can handle doing that myself, and I also can't help but think of the case where someone might be doing forensic analysis and not want any unauthorized changes made to the drive that would affect the validity of the evidence.
That is a very valid point you have there. But is there no way to disable it for people doing forensics?

My problem with systemd is that instead of the slackware minimalist approach where you have to enable and add things... systemd already comes with everything enabled and you need to disable it... This is something I definitely don't like about it and works against my common sense. Perhaps RHEL7 will fix and weed things out when it adopts it. After all Fedora is just a tesing distro for RHEL (the true reason for its support blatantly advertised).

So although I enjoy the fast boot. I dont understand why it loads so many things together from the beginning as enabled. Shit, if systemd is bragging about its boot speed, why not take advantage of parallel boot and start with minimal processes? That would make it even faster then it already is.
But now that I rethink. Back to what I just said... Take a moment and think why?.... Fedora is a testing distro for RHEL. So it makes sense to load everything on everyone so that people can see what works and what doesnt work or recieve feedback on what they like and what they dislike including bugs. I guess this just answered my question why everything including the kitchen sink is included in systemd startup. However, on a practical standpoint: A good system should have the minimal requirements and you as the admin should choose what to add into it.

Looks like I won't be using Fedora for too long more then as a hobbyist distro with this type of approach. I don't enjoy being a lab rat for their distro.

And thats what you always hear from Lennart. If you got a problem send in the Bugs!

Hahaha! My mind is clear now!
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:40 PM   #287
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
You can take a peek in "Ubuntu Efficace", a 300-page book about the innards of Ubuntu, authored by Kiki Novak, Lionel Dricot and Mark Shuttleworth.

http://tinyurl.com/764lnp6
OK, I agree that you got me there. That was a very nice come back. Respect.
and peace. Apologies for my comments. Can we move on or are you going to continue to target me with everything you say.

I admit you got me good.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 02:01 PM   #288
jk07
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I am not a Slackware user, but I feel strongly about this issue. My main objection to systemd is that it is a large departure from the Unix standard without any real necessity to do so and sets a bad precedent. Should Linux forge ahead and establish itself as a completely different OS or should it stick closely to its Unix roots? I firmly believe that it should stick to its Unix roots. Sticking with the Unix standard offers the best cross-platform compatibility with a model that has stood the test of time.

I often see mentioned here about how much Redhat has contributed to the development of the Linux kernel. So what? Does that mean that they can't have bad ideas? Does that mean that they should never be criticized?

I have a huge problem with the way Ubuntu has deviated from Unix, but at least they are not cross-distro changes. I am really sorry to see that openSUSE has adopted systemd. I hope Slackware stands its ground on this issue. If so, I just might become a slacker.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 05:06 PM   #289
ReaperX7
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Major distros always have adopted "posh" and "fad" software almost to the point they get severely broken, dependency hell inclined, and overburdened with issues from too much resource usage.

Red Hat, yes, may have contributed a lot to Linux, but should they be allowed to direct it's heading? No they shouldn't. The community of Linux users should be the ones to decide what standards are adopted for the various operating systems using Linux as it's kernel.

I've used major big brand distros in the past, and none of them have performed anywhere near as well as Slackware has over time. Mandrake was one of the first dives into Linux I took, and found it to be a load of garbage. I tried Red Hat, and again, garbage (esoecially because they wanted me to "buy" a license to get updates. I even tried SuSE and was lost in all the mess it was. I then tried Slackware. It was labeled than as a minimalist system, but was one of the oldest so I said, what the hell, and installed it... and I was hook in less than 15 minutes with it. It was easy to use, easy to work with, and was very back to basics and I actually "learned" Linux.

So for me big brand distros, are not someone I would trust with the direction of GNU/Linux at all.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 09:39 PM   #290
Richard Cranium
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bah

Last edited by Richard Cranium; 08-24-2012 at 09:40 PM. Reason: rude comment removed
 
Old 08-24-2012, 09:41 PM   #291
Richard Cranium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
Thanks for letting me know your opinions on me.
Oh, his opinion is shared by others.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:09 PM   #292
chess
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...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pfavez.jpg (36.3 KB, 52 views)
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:45 PM   #293
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
Oh, his opinion is shared by others.
Stay on topic please.
 
Old 08-25-2012, 04:28 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymo View Post
Here is a developer's opinion on using systemd

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....49530#p1149530
Interesting view on the matter. However, we need to understand how much of it is marketing speak, and how much of it is shaped by the author's situation of being a software developer familiar with the systemd implementation. As the philosopher says: "Being determines consciousness".

I am a software developer myself, but maybe that only makes me more wary of marketing speak, and of software complexity that will eventually eat all the perceived benefits of a piece of software. In that respect systemd worries me. But i must reserve judgement before i actually had a look at the thing.

What I do know is that the current line-up of init, hal, udev, dbus, hotplug, message-bus, console-kit, policy-kit, udisk and all the other shit is driving me insane and the complexity prevents me from troubleshooting and fixing problems. I wonder if that situation will improve or deteriorate under systemd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkerdi View Post
Looking at the link, I see systemd automatically runs fsck when a harddrive is hotplugged.
I would hope very much that a policy like that can be easily configured in systemd configuration...

----

PS: another aspect: we'd have no issue if people were left with a choice of init system. However, using their influence on freedektop.org etc. to make systemd mandatory is just evil in my opinion.

Last edited by Martinus2u; 08-25-2012 at 04:50 AM.
 
Old 08-25-2012, 04:49 AM   #295
jtsn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinus2u View Post
Interesting view on the matter. However, we need to understand how much of it is marketing speak, and how much of it is shaped by the author's situation of being a software developer familiar with the systemd implementation. As the philosopher says: "Being determines consciousness".

I am a software developer myself, but maybe that only makes me more wary of marketing speak, and of software complexity that will eventually eat all the perceived benefits of a piece of software. In that respect systemd worries me. But i must reserve judgement before i actually had a look at the thing.
Of course it is marketing speak. He describes all that "awesome" features that systemd should provide and do automatically, in theory, when it's done.

But the question is: Can THE developer in charge for systemd (not tomegun) successfully implement all that stuff, get it stable and interoperable? So it is usable in real world applications?

And the answer to this question is: No, he can't. because he is to inexperienced for the task at hand and knows nothing about Unix. This can be verified by looking at his track record in the FOSS community. And talking about "stable" and "interoperable", these are things, the developer in charge explicitly does not want. Just an example:

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=22444
 
Old 08-25-2012, 06:28 AM   #296
Ser Olmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsn View Post
But the question is: Can THE developer in charge for systemd (not tomegun) successfully implement all that stuff, get it stable and interoperable? So it is usable in real world applications?

And the answer to this question is: No, he can't. because he is to inexperienced for the task at hand and knows nothing about Unix. This can be verified by looking at his track record in the FOSS community. And talking about "stable" and "interoperable", these are things, the developer in charge explicitly does not want. Just an example:

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=22444
Having /usr on different filesystem than / is "not supported"? How can someone who calls himself a developer be that ignorant about the Unix file hierarchy?

He obviously doesn't know why the /usr folder exists, yet considers himself competent to throw away the entire init system (developed over 40+ years) and replace it with a single daemon? He clearly doesn't know the first thing about the Unix philosophy either (or he simply doesn't agree with it).

This cannot possibly end well.
 
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:13 AM   #297
wildwizard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
This cannot possibly end well.
His work reminds me of a quote :-

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."
 
Old 08-25-2012, 08:51 AM   #298
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Quote:

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."
Hasn't that been the accusation that Linux has faced from the BSD folk for over a decade or so?
 
Old 08-25-2012, 09:03 AM   #299
fgcl2k
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsn View Post
...
But the question is: Can THE developer in charge for systemd (not tomegun) successfully implement all that stuff, get it stable and interoperable? So it is usable in real world applications?

And the answer to this question is: No, he can't. because he is to inexperienced for the task at hand and knows nothing about Unix. This can be verified by looking at his track record in the FOSS community. And talking about "stable" and "interoperable", these are things, the developer in charge explicitly does not want. Just an example:

http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=22444
I agree with the last post; there is a lack of cooperation between different projects:
http://forums.freebsd.org/showpost.p...58&postcount=9
Instead of solving problems (like the /usr split) software is rewritten adding more confusion and incompatibility.
 
Old 08-25-2012, 09:34 AM   #300
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I've currently written an article on a topic that I feel somewhat strongly about:
http://harishankar.org/articles/inde...ormIrrelevance

Though I don't mention systemd in that article, I think anything that makes it harder for us to use different *nix OSes interchangeably is a loss for the community as a whole. Working towards achieving cross-platform portability amidst *nix OSes might be beneficial to everybody involved.

Last edited by vharishankar; 08-25-2012 at 09:35 AM.
 
  


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