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Old 08-24-2012, 10:18 AM   #271
Didier Spaier
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@Mercury305 post #269

(1) Please post you off topic thoughts in this thread as requested by unSpawn.
(2) Please don't trigger another flame-war "Slackware against others", we have had more than enough of that already.
(3) You may try to argue against someone more experienced than you on the basis of what you have read but it's not guaranteed to work

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 08-24-2012 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Typo corrected
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:37 AM   #272
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
@Mercury305 post #269

(1) Please post you off topic thoughts in this thread as requested by unSpawn.
(2) Please don't trigger another flame-war "Slackware against others", we have had more than enough of that already.
(3) You may try to argue against someone more experienced than you on the basis of what you have read but it's not guaranteed to work
Yea but I was talking about Systemd. My comments were based on Systemd. I used Arch to compare it with Reaper since he said he would never try it due to stability issues. Then the conversation changed into a Unix argument. I just went along with it. So blaming me for OT is not good. I don't enjoy being blamed for everything.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 10:42 AM   #273
volkerdi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymo View Post
Here is a developer's opinion on using systemd

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....49530#p1149530
Looking at the link, I see systemd automatically runs fsck when a harddrive is hotplugged. That's a bad idea, IMHO. I'd like some say in the matter before something like that is done. If an external drive needs checking, I think I can handle doing that myself, and I also can't help but think of the case where someone might be doing forensic analysis and not want any unauthorized changes made to the drive that would affect the validity of the evidence.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:59 AM   #274
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
As for freebsd I have nothing against it. Its just what is going on behind the technical parts. I don't have to know or use a system to find out its politics.
Are you going to sit and tell me that FreeBSD has better Hardware support then Linux? Or that it is used by more servers then Linux. Or that some key developers did not quit the project?
All of these are facts.
I am not saying FreeBSD will come back again with better stuff. But right now this is what is going on. I actually like FreeBSD as its principles and as its system over Linux... But it is lacking support currently.
Mercury305, with your restless off-topic rants about the respective merits of FreeBSD/CentOS/RHEL/Ubuntu/Slackware, you can't help but reminding me of one of my teenager students, who spends much time bragging loudly about the respective merits of the schools' girls and all the dirty things they can/can't do and/or will/won't do to him. The sensible thing for him to do to end this vain speculation would be to simply go ahead and ask one of the girls out on a date.

Now let's get back to the topic, please.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:03 AM   #275
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
Mercury305, with your restless off-topic rants about the respective merits of FreeBSD/CentOS/RHEL/Ubuntu/Slackware, you can't help but reminding me of one of my teenager students, who spends much time bragging loudly about the respective merits of the schools' girls and all the dirty things they can/can't do and/or will/won't do to him. The sensible thing for him to do to end this vain speculation would be to simply go ahead and ask one of the girls out on a date.

Now let's get back to the topic, please.
Thanks for letting me know your opinions on me. But again this has nothing to do with Systemd and Slackware. This is just one of your endless worthless and useless posts of negativity. Please be more useful to LQ in supplying us with more useful knowledge. I hardly read anything educational coming out from your finger tips compared to the amount of FUD you release or imprecise information that is proving you wrong.
For example your last 2 posts have no relevance to this topic along with many other posts.
Also prove to us how Ubuntu uses 90% repo of Debian testing. Is this a fact or another of your frequent mininformations?
I can picture Mark Shuttle worth in his boardroom discussing Ubuntu increasing or decreasing the percentage rate of debian testing packages right now. This is all worthless information if you ask me.

Last edited by Mercury305; 08-24-2012 at 11:07 AM.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 11:07 AM   #276
ReaperX7
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Mercury, carefully mind the waters you swim in.

Arch is a developers and testers dream system. Patrick's private edition of Slackware-Unstable he and the team utilize is probably along the same lines. If Patrick ever took Slackware-Unstable public you'd basically see a Slackware style clone of Arch. I would dare say Patrick probably is testing systemd in Slackware and by his words:

Quote:
I also can't help but think of the case where someone might be doing forensic analysis and not want any unauthorized changes made to the drive that would affect the validity of the evidence.
You don't know how serious things like data forensics can be taken, and unauthorized changes, even in something as simple as a timestamp, could be extremely critical and make or break.

I also have since had to restore my Arch install back to sysvinit to get a working system back in order.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 11:30 AM   #277
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
Also prove to us how Ubuntu uses 90% repo of Debian testing. Is this a fact or another of your frequent mininformations?
You can take a peek in "Ubuntu Efficace", a 300-page book about the innards of Ubuntu, authored by Kiki Novak, Lionel Dricot and Mark Shuttleworth.

http://tinyurl.com/764lnp6
 
Old 08-24-2012, 11:32 AM   #278
TracyTiger
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Automation = Lack of Control

I know nothing about systemd and I found the "developer's opinion" link posted by Anonymo helpful on this subject ... and a little scary. Old jokes about the scope of emacs functionality came to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkerdi View Post
Looking at the link, I see systemd automatically runs fsck when a harddrive is hotplugged. That's a bad idea, IMHO. I'd like some say in the matter before something like that is done.
I had a similar reaction reading the piece, but tempered my reaction as I got the impression that this was all configurable and I could simply turn off much of the automation. How much fine tuning is permitted I have no idea.

I'm not obsessed about control but I do appreciate it and seek it out. For example, when I'm doing a lot of disk work I simply run in a console without X because I don't want devices mounting automatically. I can do it myself thank you ... now computer system kindly go away and don't help me.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:34 AM   #279
vharishankar
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Mercury, my friendly advice to you, (and I am a long-time online forum user who's been involved too many flame wars to remember) please don't question the credentials of people you don't know about.

It could be very hurtful to somebody who actually does contribute substantially to the community, as kikinovak does. I've myself left this community a few times and almost ended up requesting Jeremy to delete my account because of bitterness arising out of such exchanges. kikinovac has actually co-authored a Linux book with a distribution-maintainer, which is more than most of us can claim to have achieved.

Last edited by vharishankar; 08-24-2012 at 11:39 AM.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #280
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
Mercury, carefully mind the waters you swim in.

Arch is a developers and testers dream system. Patrick's private edition of Slackware-Unstable he and the team utilize is probably along the same lines. If Patrick ever took Slackware-Unstable public you'd basically see a Slackware style clone of Arch. I would dare say Patrick probably is testing systemd in Slackware and by his words:



You don't know how serious things like data forensics can be taken, and unauthorized changes, even in something as simple as a timestamp, could be extremely critical and make or break.

I also have since had to restore my Arch install back to sysvinit to get a working system back in order.
Reaper, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not Anti-Arch. I never said Arch sucks. I just said it is not a stable choice like for example: Red Hat, Slackware and Debian.
It is not my type of distro because I take stability seriously. I have never come across 1 stability problem with systemd as of yet. But when you say you don't want to ever try systemd because of stability issues (since it is not ready) I find that ironic.
Sure it is not yet stabilized. I agree with you. But its hard for me to think of something less stable then a rolling release. Maybe I was wrong when I compared to Ubuntu Stability. Because it has so much b/s in ubuntu running in background. I won't be surprised if Ubuntu is less stable then Arch. Which is why I am switching to Windows 7.
F#$% today is not my day everything seems to crash. Must be a Mercury Retrograde or something. Even windows is acting up now. But Slackware and CentOS have stayed stable. So props to them.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 11:43 AM   #281
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vharishankar View Post
Mercury, my friendly advice to you, (and I am a long-time online forum user who's been involved too many flame wars to remember) please don't question the credentials of people you don't know about.

It could be very hurtful to somebody who actually does contribute substantially to the community, as kikinovak does. I've myself left this community a few times and almost ended up requesting Jeremy to delete my account because of bitterness arising out of such exchanges. kikinovac has actually co-authored a Linux book with a distribution-maintainer, which is more than most of us can claim to have achieved.
Hey, I am not the one attacking him. He constantly likes to on me though. I never get personal unless someone else does first.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 12:01 PM   #282
kikinovak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
I would dare say Patrick probably is testing systemd in Slackware
I'd be really curious to know if he actually does that. I shiver at the idea of a "Frankenslack" machine in a corner of Patrick Volkerding's private lab, running Systemd and GNOME 3.6 with Pulseaudio and PAM enabled as well as slapt-get with a behemoth dependency database.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 12:21 PM   #283
Ser Olmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy Tiger View Post
I know nothing about systemd and I found the "developer's opinion" link posted by Anonymo helpful on this subject ... and a little scary. Old jokes about the scope of emacs functionality came to mind.
My thoughts exactly.

While I have an innate aversion to changes when it comes to things that work, I tried reading that post with an open mind. What I found, though, is that systemd offers functionality that:
  1. already exist in a different form (he talks about easily retreiving log data, has he ever heard of grep, sed and awk? And "knowing the state of the system"... really? We have to create a monstrous daemon to replace simple scripting? Except it seems you're supposed to interact with systemd with... scripts.)
  2. claims to simplify already simple concepts (how is systemd + a number of scripts easier than init and a number of scripts?)
  3. may be beneficial to a desktop user, is really not a such good idea on a server (like automounting)
  4. introduces ridiculously complex mechanisms to solve problems that were introduced by systemd in the first place (read the part about ordering and socket activation. Yeah, sure, that absolutely beats having daemons listed in the right order in a script)
  5. breaks the Unix philosophy in a major way ("one daemon to rule them all" - how can that possibly be described as a good idea? And dbus?)
And I'm not even mentioning the part about "sandboxing", because it makes so little sense to talk about sandboxing in relation to system daemons. Perhaps he meant something else, the post was not at all clear on that point.

He also mentioned in passing "logind", which apparently will solve issues with "tracking user sessions". I'm not sure what he means by that, but is seems to be related to "dynamically assigning" permissions. Not sure what that means either.

My position is that the desktop is a process on the system, not the other way around. I manage a number of Linux servers via ssh, and none of them are running any kind of "desktop" software. From what I gather, systemd is a part of an effort to redesign the entire system init to accommodate a desktop standard, and I'd like to have as little to do with that as possible.
 
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:29 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
From what I gather, systemd is a part of an effort to redesign the entire system init to accommodate a desktop standard, and I'd like to have as little to do with that as possible.
Amen
 
Old 08-24-2012, 01:06 PM   #285
sycamorex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikinovak View Post
I shiver at the idea of a "Frankenslack" machine in a corner of Patrick Volkerding's private lab, running Systemd and GNOME 3.6 with Pulseaudio and PAM enabled as well as slapt-get with a behemoth dependency database.
The idea is so obscenely perverse that I would actually love to see it.
 
  


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