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Old 08-16-2012, 05:37 PM   #166
volkerdi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoefulNarvik View Post
I thought you were supposed to fix it until it breaks
Unless we push broken software to everyone, there's no incentive for people to report bugs, right?
 
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:36 PM   #167
ReaperX7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volkerdi View Post
Unless we push broken software to everyone, there's no incentive for people to report bugs, right?
That's like sitting in the fireplace and Santa Claus taking a dump on your head as a Christmas present. Nobody wants crap, even at Christmas.

I wonder if we could ever go back to devfs at this point.

Dug this up today: http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/11/07/...levant-anymore

Basically Linux doesn't need systemd, and it never has.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 08-16-2012 at 10:51 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2012, 11:59 AM   #168
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
The decisions of the Slackware team with regard to systemd will be highly influenced by the shared opinion as voiced in my signature.

Eric
"I am The Decider" (American Dad's Alien) :-)


Surely there are people here more experienced that me in IT
world; correct me if I am wrong. I have the following
picture:

In order of authority

1 - Users.
2 - Marketing research about clients tendencies.
3 - Hardware design and manufacture.
4 - Software development (in case of userland apps,
to some extent this step could ignore the previous one).
5 - Linux distributions.

You are the last link of the chain.

I've read your article "Commercial games and Linux" (one of the
links on your signature). And again I must insist about
priorities.

Your aim now is asking people to collaborate with Slackware,
good. But please, to avoid getting the opposite effect on some
people, double clarify that the money of Slackware donations
(the other link on your signature) is not set aside for your
"ethical crusade in pursuit to defend your right to playing
games" :-).
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:35 PM   #169
Didier Spaier
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Let be clear eloi.

As far as I know (please somebody in concern correct me if I am wrong):
1) All the money collected on http://store.slackware.com/ goes to Slackware Linux inc.
2) Alien Bob is not affiliated to Slackware Linux inc. nor paid by Slackware Linux inc. in any way for the tremendous work he makes for the community.
3) Alien Bob is regularly paying stuff on http://store.slackware.com/ to help Slackware.

Other than that, Alien Bob didn't say "I am The Decider" but "The opinion voiced by my signature is shared" (by Patrick Volkerding and the main contributors to Slackware). Can't you understand the difference?

Furthermore Patrick Volkerding, the creator of Slackware, has the last word on what is in Slackware -- even if that doesn't please you.

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 08-17-2012 at 12:51 PM.
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:07 PM   #170
Alien Bob
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Didier's statements (1) (2) and (3) are all 100% cirrect. I do not get money at all from anything you buy from or donate to Slackware. In fact, I pay for a Slackware subscription myself.

The remainder of what Didier said was just as spot-on.

Where do I ask people to "collaborate" with Slackware? I think that eloi has some misconceptions about Slackware's philosophy, and mine as well. Furthermore, I find eloi's comments about my ethics insulting. You know how it goes, *PLONK*

Eric
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:17 PM   #171
chess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
I have the following
picture:

In order of authority

1 - Users.
2 - Marketing research about clients tendencies.
3 - Hardware design and manufacture.
4 - Software development (in case of userland apps,
to some extent this step could ignore the previous one).
5 - Linux distributions.

You are the last link of the chain.
I think this is exactly backwards, at least as far as most projects like Slackware are concerned.
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:42 PM   #172
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Didier's statements (1) (2) and (3) are all 100% cirrect. I do not get money at all from anything you buy from or donate to Slackware. In fact, I pay for a Slackware subscription myself.

The remainder of what Didier said was just as spot-on.

Where do I ask people to "collaborate" with Slackware? I think that eloi has some misconceptions about Slackware's philosophy, and mine as well. Furthermore, I find eloi's comments about my ethics insulting. You know how it goes, *PLONK*

Eric
I knew about the three points because I've read some posting
you've done (I don't remember now the place) explaining the
causes of slackware.org site down issue.

First of all "The Decider" was a joke.

But I understand if you feel insulted. I was a bit ironic
because the following.

I know that games have come hand in hand with software
development from computer beginnings. But while developing
games could mean a job (and an interesting activity), you must
admit that playing them is something that you do in your free
time. Writing a whole article (with your same criteria,
Stallman could considered insulted by you and by me) but being
your big concern your right to "playing games" being people in
other parts of the globe dying for starvation is something with
I cannot empathize.

Of course if I bad understood what you've wrote in your blog,
please accept my apologizes.

Respect to "collaborate" with Slackware. I understood that the
links you've included in the signature were some kind of
condition for the decision Slackware team would take with the
systemd issue.

Again, if I misunderstood, my apologies.

I still have a pain in my head with your PLONK :-).

Anyway, my criticism was about what you said, you have no need
to talk in the name or in defense of Slackware team or Slackware
philosophy.


Walter
 
Old 08-17-2012, 06:09 PM   #173
Alien Bob
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Yoyu totally missed the point when I mentioned my signature. Those links have been there like forever. I added one line recently and that is what I hinted at: "systemd, the GNOME3 of init systems.". I was not trying to force you into making a Slackware donation at all. The systemd quote was all that mattered.

Your obsession with my article on games (the ones you have to pay for and which are closed source) is taking it all completely out of context. What does poverty in parts of the world have to do with the fact that I like to play games? While you are reading and posting in this forum, people are dying horrible deaths in Syria. Does that change your behaviour in this forum?

Geez... I do not feel the slightest inclination to discuss this, or anything else, with you.

Eric
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:56 PM   #174
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
Furthermore Patrick Volkerding, the creator of Slackware, has the last word on what is in Slackware -- even if that doesn't please you.
Mr Volkerding and the people that work in Slackware do what they
can, like you, me and other mortals out there in their
respective jobs. If they chose A instead of B they
know better than you and me why, because they are who are doing
the job.

That is on public knowledge, so why do you think that I
come here to ask Volkerding to do what I want? Do you think I
am a child or an egocentric idiot?

You, Eric, me, anybody can download the latest linux kernel and
the software and mount its own distribution. If you still don't
know how you can follow the LFS manual. So if Vorlkerding doesn't
do what I want at "distribution level" I will not cry :-).
Nobody has excuse to brown his nose for that.

What you and no individual will be able to do alone is to
"develop" and "maintain" the entire OS. At time Linus Torvals
did was possible but today you depend on others. Even Linus
Torvals.

I ignore how useful could be my opinion here. But take for sure
that my aim is not evil and I gave it without egocentric interest.
 
Old 08-17-2012, 07:07 PM   #175
Mercury305
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Location: Rockville, MD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Mr Volkerding and the people that work in Slackware do what they
can, like you, me and other mortals out there in their
respective jobs. If they chose A instead of B they
know better than you and me why, because they are who are doing
the job.

That is on public knowledge, so why do you think that I
come here to ask Volkerding to do what I want? Do you think I
am a child or an egocentric idiot?

You, Eric, me, anybody can download the latest linux kernel and
the software and mount its own distribution. If you still don't
know how you can follow the LFS manual. So if Vorlkerding doesn't
do what I want at "distribution level" I will not cry :-).
Nobody has excuse to brown his nose for that.

What you and no individual will be able to do alone is to
"develop" and "maintain" the entire OS. At time Linus Torvals
did was possible but today you depend on others. Even Linus
Torvals.

I ignore how useful could be my opinion here. But take for sure
that my aim is not evil and I gave it without egocentric interest.
Then start your own distro. What are you complaining about?
I used to also argue on some things about Slackware but now I understand its philosophy and respect it for what it is.
If everyone including I where to dictate what should be in Slackware then Slackware will not be what it is today. It will be just like every other distro.
I am happy that "Slackware is Slackware". It has the right to choose whatever packages are in the distro. But I don't enjoy reading endless discussions on systemd and how it is going to mess up linux. My personal belief is that what won't work will eventually be discarded. If however it does work and all developers start writing code based on it. Then Slackware will also switch. Ubuntu for example continues using Consolekit. Fedora is doing all the testing and fixing on systemd... Lets see where things end. I am not Pro Systemd nor am I anti Systemd... I am too ignorant to make a decision. I also believe most people that say that systemd rocks or systemd sucks are also ignorant on it. Because it is a complex system to understand. The man pages are over 100+. imo you should at least give it a chance and thoroughly examine it before saying it sucks or rocks. All I can say is that it boots my computer faster and with no problems as of yet. Other then that I am ignorant on everything else about systemd.
As for your comments on Communism and people dying and what it has to do with Eric's blog of video games I do not understand your Logic at all. Why don't you go feed the hungry children instead of writing posts here then?
 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:29 PM   #176
eloi
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Registered: Nov 2010
Posts: 136

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Yoyu totally missed the point when I mentioned my signature. Those links have been there like forever. I added one line recently and that is what I hinted at: "systemd, the GNOME3 of init systems.". I was not trying to force you into making a Slackware donation at all. The systemd quote was all that mattered.

Your obsession with my article on games (the ones you have to pay for and which are closed source) is taking it all completely out of context. What does poverty in parts of the world have to do with the fact that I like to play games? While you are reading and posting in this forum, people are dying horrible deaths in Syria. Does that change your behaviour in this forum?

Geez... I do not feel the slightest inclination to discuss this, or anything else, with you.

Eric
Well, take in care that new people could fall in the same
mistake. How could I know what link was new there? Besides, I
didn't say you "forced" me to pay, you, and Dierdi Spaier
exaggerated a bit.

But in the case of your article I will not retract myself.
 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:37 PM   #177
T3slider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury305 View Post
I also believe most people that say that systemd rocks or systemd sucks are also ignorant on it. Because it is a complex system to understand. The man pages are over 100+. imo you should at least give it a chance and thoroughly examine it before saying it sucks or rocks. All I can say is that it boots my computer faster and with no problems as of yet.
systemd could be the best thing since sliced bread (which I don't think it is) but because it intentionally locks out other non-Linux UNIX/UNIX-like systems, I can have a firm opinion despite its performance gains in Linux. If it were just replacing SysV init to perform dependency-based booting then it wouldn't be as controversial. There will be a future time where Gnome (and potentially other software) is intentionally locked out of the *BSDs in favour of Linux exclusivity, which frankly insults the open source community as a whole, which is and always was much more than just Linux (or GNU). I am mostly a pragmatist but that does not stop me from occasionally maintaining a stance based on principle or philosophy despite the inconvenience it causes. The ability to write software for all *nix systems at once (the *BSDs, including OS X, GNU/Linux, Solaris, UNIX, etc.) has always been a strength of the open source community, and efforts like this threaten to turn GNU/Linux into 'the' open-source monopoly. There are several ways of maintaining compatibility while increasing performance, all of which were intentionally avoided here.
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:42 PM   #178
ReaperX7
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If anyone ever feels Slackware isn't for them, I always recommend several distros to try out before you make a final judgment into what is what...

Gentoo (Live DVD version)
ArchLinux
Xubuntu

...which are a good minimum to try out to see how each handles software and releases. I also even recommend trying out a UNIX variant like...

PC-BSD
OpenIndiana

...at minimum. This way you can cut your teeth properly into Linux, BSD, and Illumos UNIX style systems and see how each is managed, utilized, and how much you can learn.

And always... there is the "Linux From Scratch" project to which you can make your own distro.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 08-17-2012 at 08:43 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2012, 10:08 PM   #179
Mercury305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3slider View Post
systemd could be the best thing since sliced bread (which I don't think it is) but because it intentionally locks out other non-Linux UNIX/UNIX-like systems, I can have a firm opinion despite its performance gains in Linux. If it were just replacing SysV init to perform dependency-based booting then it wouldn't be as controversial. There will be a future time where Gnome (and potentially other software) is intentionally locked out of the *BSDs in favour of Linux exclusivity, which frankly insults the open source community as a whole, which is and always was much more than just Linux (or GNU). I am mostly a pragmatist but that does not stop me from occasionally maintaining a stance based on principle or philosophy despite the inconvenience it causes. The ability to write software for all *nix systems at once (the *BSDs, including OS X, GNU/Linux, Solaris, UNIX, etc.) has always been a strength of the open source community, and efforts like this threaten to turn GNU/Linux into 'the' open-source monopoly. There are several ways of maintaining compatibility while increasing performance, all of which were intentionally avoided here.
But why should Red Hat develop software that works cross platform between other OS's? I mean last time I checked Red Hat was a Multi Billion dollar Corp motivated by its share holders. If systemd eliminates competition that is a wise plan for them in a Business sense. Business is not about sharing, caring etc. It is motivated by profit. Free BSD is a Non Profit, but they have done a lot of Linux Bashing and I really don't think they are as caring of Linux as Linux is of them. For the BSD's opinion Linux is just some new GNU Communist OS that stole their spot light.

In the end even those Multi Billion dollar corps are subject to their customers desires. The costumer that receives the service can switch to an alternative at any time if they feel that there are better options. A great example is Microsoft and Sun's decline against other Open Source OS's. Open Source clearly has a comparative advantage over closed source. Thus, the current decline of the closed source OS's.

Therefore if Systemd causes a significant decline in functionality and productivity then it will get self eliminated. Especially in the open source world. Where you can't hide things.

In the end its not people like Lennart that push products down other peoples throats no matter how hard they try. It is the users willingness to accept what they offer.
Last time I checked the average Linux User has a higher IQ then Mac or Windows users. Can we not trust that they will come up with the correct decisions?

A good business plan for Slackware is to target a specific audience (which is what it is currently doing) and keep going with it. Eventually that audience will stay loyal to the distro because of its differences.

Lets not be afraid that Systemd will mess up how software works by other developers. I am sure there are hacks around systemd to keep Slackware as Slackware.
Again if systemd is as bad as it is. This is only in best interest of Slackware as many users will run from the systemd distros back to Slackware and the Slackware community will grow.

I am keeping my options open: I like certain things in RHEL, Ubuntu and Slackware. I use all of them from time to time depending on the purpose I use them for. Multimedia wise I generally use Ubuntu for example not that it can't be done in Slackware but rather that its easier for me. But for terminal flexibility and configuring files and scripts Slackware is king. That is called being Pragmatic. I have recently bought 3 new computers costing me a total $500 or so. Plenty of time to try out distros and advance in my own way...

So far my favorite in command line flexibility is Slackware. The Sys V init in my opinion is also more flexible then systemd for server type work. But if you want to startup a multimedia based distro why not use a faster boot up? In the end its more about what you do with systemd then if it is right or wrong.

I understand that Eric compares systemd to Gnome3 and I like the comparison. But there are even some people who like Gnome3 for their own interesting reasons. And as long as there are people that still like it Gnome 3 will continue to live (but personally I don't think it will). So this is the power of the user when it comes to distros. It's all about personal Choice and Individual Opinion. Don't be afraid of the big bad corps. As long as the users are there there will continue to be Slackware and *BSD's.

cheers!
 
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:16 PM   #180
Mercury305
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Rockville, MD
Distribution: Slackware (F*** Umbuntu)
Posts: 528

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
If anyone ever feels Slackware isn't for them, I always recommend several distros to try out before you make a final judgment into what is what...

Gentoo (Live DVD version)
ArchLinux
Xubuntu

...which are a good minimum to try out to see how each handles software and releases. I also even recommend trying out a UNIX variant like...

PC-BSD
OpenIndiana

...at minimum. This way you can cut your teeth properly into Linux, BSD, and Illumos UNIX style systems and see how each is managed, utilized, and how much you can learn.

And always... there is the "Linux From Scratch" project to which you can make your own distro.
My opinion is the best way to choose a good distro is to first "know what you want". Then research, then try them out and then choose.

I want stability + clean code, simplicity, good hardware support, flexibility and automation. Therefore I choose distros in those categories.
Everything else like a nice Desktop GUI, Multimedia support... etc. is secondary. But that doesnt mean I will not use Multimedia based distros including Windows.

UNIX Philosophy use each tool for its own purpose doing 1 thing. Use the same philosophy on OS's and Distros as well. Each OS and Distro has certain strengths and drawbacks.
I have lost my mind over trying to find myself the 1 Perfect Distro. Until the neophyte became enlightened and started using all.
If I had money to spend I would definitely buy a Mac for pure Multimedia Purposes.
 
  


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