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Old 02-26-2014, 03:41 PM   #121
Alien Bob
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I think the offending line which requires clarification was "It's a borderline ethical practice really".

Eric
 
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:51 PM   #122
ReaperX7
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It means simply this:

Right or wrong... If you could, should you, and if you could, would you?

Now plug in a company name and a project name and you get the meaning that all I'm saying is look closer for the things they don't want you to see. Nothing more and nothing less.

Last edited by ReaperX7; 02-26-2014 at 03:54 PM.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 03:55 PM   #123
Alien Bob
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I think it is time to stop the bullshit in this thread. This forum would be properly served with backed-up statements and no FUD-like excrements.

Eric
 
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:41 PM   #124
vik
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This thread has ever-so-slightly derailed :P

Alien Bob, can you offer your opinion on the original questions? I've read your posts stating your position on systemd and understand they are not the official position of Slackware, but I'm still curious how you would keep systemd out of Slackware if Pat made that decision. Would you take up the eudev + consolekit + policykit mantle or are there other options you would consider? Thanks.

Last edited by vik; 02-28-2014 at 05:29 PM.
 
Old 02-27-2014, 04:42 PM   #125
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
Quite a funny statement, systemd was definitely started on the desktop and the most used Linux based mobile OS, Android, doesn't use it. You might want to elaborate on that.
Without being a kernel developer or an engineer I bet that systemd was developed principally with the mobile devices fashion in mind. Android has differences with Linux and was released in 2008 two years before the first systemd release, that could be the reason they do not used it, but I am just guessing. If you or other else here have deep knowledge I welcome the explanation, being wrong is the better thing that can happen to me .

Quote:
Anyways, your whole argument comes down to: Don't invent an OS for the masses, they can't fix it when it breaks, so they don't deserve an OS that fits their needs.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Perhaps you take my observations by expressions of wish. They aren't.

Quote:
The funny thing is, something like the changes in the Linux world nowadays happened already with other things. Like, for example, the car industry. In the early days of the automobile the driver also had to be the technician, while nowadays most people that drive a car do not know how to fix it. And that is a good thing, why should people have to learn that? There are a number of well paid technicians there to do that for them.
The not funny thing is changes in Linux world nowadays happen at all levels in all fields. It's not just about fixing the OS or a car, today people do not know how to send an email, how to configure a mail client, how to use an FTP account, etc. They ignore the basics arguing that is not their field of interest. And they ignore how to drive a car. I started to believe in God when came to Spain, if a Spanish get his home after crossing the city driving is because God exists. In my country, Argentina, where people have not the level of life you have in Germany be sure they still know how to disassemble a whole car's motor.
My good intentioned advice, in case you are sure to follow that philosophy is pray for your country's economy (and the economy of the world in general) to stay healthy enough.

My present is future for you, that's why you don't catch my words.

Quote:
But I would like to know how this (or your rant that desktop environments dare to automate things for their users) is related to systemd, I see no link.
I don't see a link in your approach and other guys defending your same approach and FOSS.

Systemd goal is to automate what before you could hack. While I cannot be absolutely sure about the relation between systemd and mobile devices I see a clear relation between, kms, kdbus, udev, systemd, etc. with the graphical desktop experience that MSWindows and Apple have implanted and Linux has imitated all this years. You don't because your specialized mind doesn't let you see the whole picture. Enough proof to say that I don't need that software and worse it bothers me. I use FVWM by desktop and do all from command line.

Last edited by eloi; 02-28-2014 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Text corrected
 
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:05 AM   #126
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
In the early days of the automobile the driver also had to be the technician, while nowadays most people that drive a car do not know how to fix it. And that is a good thing, why should people have to learn that? There are a number of well paid technicians there to do that for them.
Let's play with another analogies.

See what happens with the butcher's, the greengrocer's and the baker's when a big supermarket put its big fit on the town. WYSIWYG interfaces + automation.

See the effect of companies like 1&1 or google blogs, or software like wordpress, joomla (or the one used in this forum) on web masters, web designers, and web programmers. And the resulting quality on the web in general. WYSIWYG interfaces + automation.

Lennart will tell you systemd works in desktop, servers, mobile devices, and that's the ugly true. The idea is "unify and automate". While small companies and stand alone hackers are the first injured, final users end suffering too in quality and prices (the latter deserve to suffer). What is good for a truck isn't for your ferrari.

WYSIWYG interfaces + automation + users idiocy = monopolies.

And you're wrong, people do not call a technician, they drop the machine and buy a new one. Another point for mobile devices towards monopoly.

And you can send fourteen "tickets" (another beauty of modern automation) to a company giving you a service on internet, they will try this or that on the WYSIWYG interface but if the issue requires a qualified tech they will not call it. Live with the issue or change to another company (to suffer the same treatment).

Eventually we all end up paying more for a lower quality. And the good quality disappears.

That's why when I tell you "don't buy that" it is not because I don't respect other's taste.

Last edited by eloi; 02-28-2014 at 06:00 AM. Reason: spelling correction and text added
 
Old 02-28-2014, 08:29 AM   #127
narz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
It means simply this:

Right or wrong... If you could, should you, and if you could, would you?

Now plug in a company name and a project name and you get the meaning that all I'm saying is look closer for the things they don't want you to see.
You should start a conspiracy blog about systemd.
 
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:59 AM   #128
rogan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
Let's play with another analogies.

See what happens with the butcher's, the greengrocer's and the baker's when a big supermarket put its big fit on the town. WYSIWYG interfaces + automation.

See the effect of companies like 1&1 or google blogs, or software like wordpress, joomla (or the one used in this forum) on web masters, web designers, and web programmers. And the resulting quality on the web in general. WYSIWYG interfaces + automation.

Lennart will tell you systemd works in desktop, servers, mobile devices, and that's the ugly true. The idea is "unify and automate". While small companies and stand alone hackers are the first injured, final users end suffering too in quality and prices (the latter deserve to suffer). What is good for a truck isn't for your ferrari.

WYSIWYG interfaces + automation + users idiocy = monopolies.

And you're wrong, people do not call a technician, they drop the machine and buy a new one. Another point for mobile devices towards monopoly.
+1 here

Last edited by rogan; 02-28-2014 at 10:01 AM.
 
Old 02-28-2014, 12:03 PM   #129
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narz View Post
You should start a conspiracy blog about systemd.
It seems that the "Conspiracy theory" has become another dirty trick added to "Your comment is off-topic", "You insulted me", "I can't read your formating in my phone", "Keep your comment technical", "Godwin law", etc. to discredit what others say.

You play dirty each other here where you have nothing to lose, what do you expect between companies? It's as old as human being.
 
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:24 PM   #130
Smokey_justme
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@eloi: This is wrong on so many levels.. First of, stop assuming that all people should have your interests and your priorities... Assuming that everyone should spend the same amount of time as you do in learning something (anything, it doesn't matter what) and they are bad (or have bad habits) if they don't learn or even try to learn is exactly that..

Imagine that most people, that don't have anything to do with IT, work at least 8 hours a day.. then have other chores, and at the end of the day (or through the day) they just want to browse the internet for 2, 3 hours, or play a game, or work on some hobby with the help of a PC... The fact is that we can't expect those people to spend the same amount of time as us on the PCs... We can't, for example, recommend to use and learn Slackware to them, but we can, in fact, recommend a more automated distribution (or OS ).. The same would go to cars too (since you brought up this analogy)... I'm from Romania, not the richest country in the world and one of the old communist country in the eastern Europe block (until '89). People did repair their own cars when the cars we're actually build with this premise in mind.. You can not however ask those people to mangle in any of the modern cars and they shouldn't have to.. It's not their job and it even puts their own lives (and even other lives) at risk by doing so ... In that case hiring someone is actually the right thing to do ....

Back to computers... Any system administrator or programmer can spend days just reading about, for example, security issues.. or what's new in the field.. An end-user has neither the time or the reason to do something similar.. And in the end, he shouldn't have to..

So where does systemd have to do with all these? Well, nothing... systemd should not and does not (contrary to popular opinion) have anything to do with day-to-day end-users... It only affects and is of interest for power-users, developers, package/distribution maintainers, etc .. So then, why are end-users idiots when they really should not care about how their system works? They are not... I'm sorry to tell you, but people like you are .. You somehow, in the lack of proper objective argumentation, find it right to bash another group of people and blame them for something that, in the end, they have no effect upon..

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 02-28-2014 at 12:26 PM.
 
Old 02-28-2014, 03:56 PM   #131
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
@eloi: This is wrong on so many levels...
What I explained (not the words you put in my mouth) is not in contradiction with what you said.

The personal computer is not a refrigerator. Depending of what use you need to give to it is the time you *must* spend in learning how to use it. I have to spend an hour explaining clients by phone how to configure Thunderbird. That's after having sent to them a full tutorial in html with images explaining step by step, that they do not understand! In which part of my discourse you read I ask them to compile a kernel?

From my interest (I didn't talk about *my* interst yet) the idea is: develop the interface you want, dumbest to no end if you like and you think it is useful for someone, but do not break things to sys admins in the process.

Have you got the idea now?

Last edited by eloi; 02-28-2014 at 04:19 PM.
 
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:59 PM   #132
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloi View Post
I have to spend an hour explaining clients by phone how to configure Thunderbird.
Tell them to use webmail instead, you'll save time
 
Old 02-28-2014, 04:17 PM   #133
eloi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Didier Spaier View Post
Tell them to use webmail instead, you'll save time
Uh Didier, It takes me the same time to explain them how to use webmail!
 
Old 03-07-2014, 01:14 AM   #134
ttk
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Update on eudev testing:

I've had it built for a while (sans man pages, via "./configure --disable-manpages" -- the man page Makefile wants to transform udev.xml using xsltproc, a utility Slackware lacks) but between work and a reluctance to reboot my primary laptop I haven't actually tested it yet.

Realized I wasn't going to, and pulled my old T510 out of retirement. Installed slackware64-current on it, and will test eudev with that. It can be my test box, since I really don't like rebooting my primary laptop or primary desktop and my other two desktops are in pieces at the moment.

Not sure what to do about the xsltproc dependency, yet. I can either find its sources and make an xsltproc.SlackBuild, or figure out what it's supposed to do and write a replacement, or simply keep a copy of the manual pages already-made with the eudev.SlackBuild and insert them in lieu of xsltproc.
 
Old 03-07-2014, 06:33 AM   #135
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttk View Post
xsltproc, a utility Slackware lacks)
You know that xsltproc is part of the libxslt package which has been part of Slackware for quite some time?

Eric
 
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