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Old 01-30-2005, 03:34 PM   #31
Namaseit
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Hmmmm. A very interesting discussion indeed. In the end though is Pat's distro. If you don't like it, fork a version with the sdk in place of some other packages you don't like. It's the great thing about Linux, your not helpless unless you choose to be. I personally could give a rip. Don't use java and praying I never will. But that's just me. I'm not going to force my personal opinions on other people. And seeing as how I haven't heard much of a fuss from just about anyone until now I don't think Pat will even much care. If you're that concerned then you should seriously discuss it with Pat. I know for a fact he does reply to his emails. Just don't attack him for taking out the sdk but try to reason with him and notify him of reasons why he should keep it and possible ways of doing it. I'll tell you right now though another disk is absolutely out of the question. When it went to 2 disks quite a few people freaked, including myself. Adding a third just for java is pure insanity. I still only use one disk for install because I have all the newest packages on my server so I just use that as a local repository and install kde/gnome after the fact. Or have the updated packages and some of my scripts/conf files burned to a dvd. Also, even if you have dial-up you just download it and burn it to a disk. Then you won't have to download it again. For a long time I could only use my Sprint cellphone for internet. It was slow as heck too but once the packages were done i backed them up. Less to download next time. So this is just a minor inconvenience for some. Not a *major* problem. Just not the ideal situation for some.
 
Old 01-30-2005, 03:54 PM   #32
MylesCLin
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Quote:
Originally posted by digiot

I personally don't see it as a big deal. Choices have to be made and almost no one's going to be thrilled with all of them. However, based on the 8 for, one ambivalent, one against the sdk decision in this thread, it looks like Pat made an excellent choice.
We have the answer! Good job digiot!
 
Old 01-30-2005, 04:34 PM   #33
DaWallace
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HEY!!

is it still gonna be on the site?
if not I"m only slightly annoyed anyway.. I haven't done any java for over a year and NEVER intend to do it again.. I only used it because my AP computer science class was based on it.. and I was a little pissed because it was c++ the year before. and I love c/c++
if he's not gonna make the package available at all because it won't fit on a cd I don't really care what he's done in the past.. he's dumb.. and is there not an enormous amount of space now that gnome is toast in slackware?
 
Old 01-30-2005, 04:55 PM   #34
gargamel
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Quote:
I'll tell you right now though another disk is absolutely out of the question. When it went to 2 disks quite a few people freaked, including myself. Adding a third just for java is pure insanity.
Why?
Like you I find it very good that I can install a running system from one CD. But I don't mind if there are additional CD's with more software packages, that I may or may not use. What's wrong with having the users make their own decisions?

As I said, there's no question that it should be possible to install a working system from CD 1. Which is one of so many good features of Slackware, that shouldn't be changed.

This is a thing that I used to like with SuSE: I never used disc 5 (DVD 2). And, BTW, another good thing that Pat might well copy from SuSE is distributing on CD's and DVD's alike. It's convenient, if you have a DVD drive, and still no restriction, if you don't.

gargamel
 
Old 01-30-2005, 10:36 PM   #35
Namaseit
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I don't know if he will be putting out a DVD version any time soon. Besides, there is a DVD iso floating around somewhere of slack 10.....
 
Old 01-31-2005, 02:14 AM   #36
uselpa
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My point was (and is) that Slackware decisions should
-1- be based on technical decisions only and
-2- provide an upgrade path from one version to the next.

More or less CDs, Java sucks or does not are not the point at all. They should be inferred from the above principles.

I do agree with gargamel that it's nice to install a system from CD or DVD. In a professional environment like the one where I work, this is appreciated by both the security department and the system people alike.
 
Old 01-31-2005, 04:38 AM   #37
Namaseit
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I understand where your coming from. I completely respect your opinion. It's just that to me its Pat's distro. Not saying he just arbitrarily does what he wants without merit, but it is his.

Plus, if pat had to choose something that takes up alot of room and isn't *ABSOLUTELY* necessary to the system then I support that and it seems that alot of people do not have a problem with it. Thats what sucks about being in the minority. :-\

It's not like he just said, "Hey no java period". He replaced it with the jre which is enough for *most* of the users of slackware to use whatever java app might be needed. And if you want the SDK just go get it. It sucks for some people but Pat can't please everyone. If he could he would be making millions on self help tapes and charging people $500 to go to his seminars. But he isn't, and he can't please everyone. So take the good with the bad. It's still the same slackware. Just now you have to go and download one package.
 
Old 01-31-2005, 07:11 AM   #38
uselpa
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I just wanted to say that I was not the person writing a mail to Distrowatch about this issue (cf. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050131#3). Although I agree totally, I wouldn't try to influence Pat in this way - I'd rather send a mail to him personally.
 
Old 02-02-2005, 06:02 PM   #39
gargamel
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I really don't want to stretch this subject over the point, but...
  • - yes, of course, Slackware is Pat's distro, no doubt about it!
    - Nevertheless, he listens to users. Remember the switch from XFree86 to Xorg, which was triggered by the community, as Pat states.
    - Is it a technical decision to drop something because it doesn't fit on a CD?
    - If dropping things that aren't necessary, then there are a couple of hundreds candidates more than the Java SDK and Gnome....
    - No problem for me being in the minority in this thread. As I said: I subscribed to Slackware just to support its development, but I install a new release usually before I receive the CD box.

But this thread raises a couple of more general questions:
  • - Who needs the CD box?
    - Could it be that people needing the CDs are not taking part in discussions like this one, for the same reasons they need the CDs?
    - How many such users are there?
    - Would it make sense to switch the subscription to a CD-less system --- no CDs, but Email support for, say, half the price?

I don't know the answers. Maybe Pat does. Maybe he doesn't care. Anyway, I'll respect his decision. After all, his decisions have made Slackware what it is: The Linux distribution we all love so much.

gargamel
 
Old 02-02-2005, 06:49 PM   #40
Jeebizz
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Seeing as how this thread just keeps popping up, I'll contribute some of my more recent thoughts.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, because of Pat dropping JavaSDK, it can be downloaded, and it is not really anything that crucial for the system to be kept in place. Those who need the SDK can just download it, and as for myself, although I am learning how to program in Java, (because it is a prerequisit for my bachelors in computer science), I don't care if I have to download the SDK, I had to do it anyways, because in my class we have to use the NetBeans sdk 4.0, but anyways, having programming experience in C++, all be it not enough, I still fail to see the importance of Java. I myself don't like the language, since to me it just seems that Sun Microsystems took the C/C++ language, and crippled it. I mean, Java is based off of C/C++, with a lot of key features taken out, and also it is run through an interpretor instead of a compiler. I have even asked my professor about any advantage about java, besides being "multi-platform" which to me is not worth it, due to the loss of speed, I would just say tweak your C/C++ code for that particular platform, and all is well, rather than use java. So besides the "multi-platform" arguement, which I find bogus, the other real reason is that it lacks the use of pointers, and makes things easier. What thats it? No pointers? Big deal. I admit that even I myself had a hard time grasping pointers when learning C++, but who cares, pointers can usually be one of the hard parts of C/C++ to grasp. It took me little effort, but I got it. To me, Java seems more like a programming language for those who don't really want to learn how to program , but can say that 'they have written code.' And although I am not trying to boast too much about C++, cause in my opinion, a true programmer can also program in assembly, and I'm no where near that kind of level, and probably never will be, but for an everyday programming language, and use, to me Java just doesn't cut it, not for cross platform, nor for web pages either. To me, Java has pretty much left a bitter taste in my mouth, and no amount of sugar and cream, can make it any better. Well thats my rant, thanks for putting up with it, look forward to any further thoughts to this.
 
Old 02-03-2005, 03:54 AM   #41
slakmagik
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Quote:
Originally posted by gargamel

- If dropping things that aren't necessary, then there are a couple of hundreds candidates more than the Java SDK and Gnome....
I'm out of this thread, practically speaking, so I'm not going to say anything about a lot of things, but just to clarify: he's dropping Gnome because it's a semi-incompetent mess that's a pain to build and drains time and resources. I see it as having a side effect of slimming Slack, but that's not the point or reason.

Yeah, the SDK/JRE decision is size-based. Which people seem to not regard as a technical decision. If he'd said I'm dropping the Java stuff because the version numbers are stupid I think you could say that not particularly technical. If he'd said I'm dropping the Java stuff because it's a stupid name you could really say it was completely untechnical. But the logistics of producing a distro carry their own 'technicalities'. Let's say Patrick had 10 billion of those fancy 4-CD-holding-boxes made because it was cheaper and he's still got 5 billion left. Then Slackware's going to technically need to stay at 4 CDs to fit in the damn box for awhile. I'm not saying this is the case (no pun intended ) but something along these lines could very well be. -- And if that were the case, Slackware wouldn't be able to go CD-less without a loss even if that were a good idea otherwise.

Anyway - like I say, I'm out - cuss out Pat for dropping the SDK, I give up. Just had to point out that Gnome and the SDK are separate issues. (And mozilla, if dropped, would be still a third issue - a combination of size, build pains, and what most people actually use, since there are so few of us mozilla dinosaurs left.)

Last edited by slakmagik; 02-03-2005 at 03:56 AM.
 
Old 02-03-2005, 04:33 PM   #42
gargamel
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digiot: Thanks for clearing the different motivations up.

jeebiz: Actually the discussion here is not on the pros and cons of Java language... And BTW, as every real programmer knows: A problem that can't be solved in FORTRAN isn't worth to be solved, at all! ;-)

gargamel
 
Old 02-07-2005, 08:37 AM   #43
slakmagik
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For Slack 10.1:
Quote:
Wed Feb 2 17:46:02 PST 2005
...
extra/j2sdk-1.5.0_01/j2sdk-1_5_0_01-i586-1.tgz: There turned out to be just
barely enough room in /extra on ISO 3 to squeeze the Java SDK in. It's not
likely to fit the next time around, though, but now you're getting many
months of advance notice instead of having the rug pulled out from under
you at the last minute. In any event, I'll continue to include in /extra
the script that easily allows packaging this as a tgz.
...
That should satisfy *everybody*.
 
Old 02-07-2005, 09:41 AM   #44
uselpa
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He's still my hero (even without Java SDK)
;-)
 
Old 02-07-2005, 03:24 PM   #45
gargamel
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Wink

He listens.

To us.





(And there are rumours of people thinking that other distros are more "user friendly"; whatever that means then there...)


gargamel

Last edited by gargamel; 02-07-2005 at 03:26 PM.
 
  


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