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Old 01-28-2005, 01:22 PM   #1
acanton
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Pat drops Java SDK


From the changelog:
d/jre-1_5_0_01-i586-1.tgz: Replaced j2sdk 1.5.0 with jre-1.5.0_01.
The full J2SDK is not needed by most people, and is making the first
Slackware test ISO too large (size limit on a replicated ISO is 670MB), so
an updated version of the JRE will replace it. If you need the full J2SDK,
it is easily obtained from Sun (at java.sun.com).
-----

I think it is bad policy to make decisions like this based upon what will fit on a CD. Slack is NOT for noobs. The SDK is NOT for noobs. Thus, I think it belongs in Slack... as it has been all along.

I don't do much in Java these days, but once in a while I like to play with it. I don't want to mess with a new install from Sun, having to hope their installer does not screw up something, and then deal with $PATH, symlinks, etc. One of the reasons I pay the $40 for Slack is because it does all of this for me on the install.

So what is next? GIMP is very large. Maybe it will be purged? How about emacs or vi? No one needs both!

Where is it written that Slack can't be more than 2 CDs... or 10 CDs. The whole philosophy of Slack is that you do what's "right" not just "what fits."

Please, Pat, put back the Java SDK and take out something else if you must.

Al Canton, President
Adams-Blake Company, Inc.
Jaya123: Your office on the web
http://www.jaya123.com
 
Old 01-28-2005, 01:34 PM   #2
rshaw
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"non-noobs" along with everyone else, knows how to find java.sun.com
 
Old 01-28-2005, 01:47 PM   #3
almahdi
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Quote:
Originally posted by rshaw
"non-noobs" along with everyone else, knows how to find java.sun.com
I agree
 
Old 01-28-2005, 02:21 PM   #4
artistikone
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The Java(Sun's) included with Slack sucks anyways. I always remove it and use Blackdown.com's instead.
 
Old 01-28-2005, 03:04 PM   #5
php
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This thread is pretty pointless considering that MOST people don't need the JDK, and that's exactly why he removed it and put the JRE in it's place. Do you actually develop in Java and need the full JDK? Fine, go to java.sun.com and get it!
 
Old 01-28-2005, 03:09 PM   #6
Jeebizz
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Here is my two cents worth. I could careless that javasdk is no longer included into slack. Those who want the SDK can still obtain it from sun, and install it, as for me, although I am learning how to program in java, I still prefer the C++ language, due to it's speed.
 
Old 01-28-2005, 03:13 PM   #7
killerbob
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Java Runtime Environment (JRE) allows you to *run* Java programs.
Java Software Development Kit (SDK) allows you to *write* Java programs, as well as run them.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that better than half of the people you know actually need the SDK over the JRE? Just because it's there for the taking doesn't mean that it should be on the ISO. If a majority of users aren't going to use it, then it's an enormous waste of bandwidth, not to mention adding unneeded bloat to a distro that I, personally, chose specifically because it isn't as bloated as a lot of other distros.
 
Old 01-28-2005, 03:29 PM   #8
egag
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i guess every java-developer is able to install and setup the SDK.
so what's the prob. ?

egag
 
Old 01-28-2005, 04:03 PM   #9
acanton
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Quote:
Originally posted by hackers_
This thread is pretty pointless considering that MOST people don't need the JDK, and that's exactly why he removed it and put the JRE in it's place. Do you actually develop in Java and need the full JDK? Fine, go to java.sun.com and get it!

How do you know what most people who use Slack need? I could argue just as effectively that most people don't NEED gimp, or emacs, or vi or any one of a thousand things that get packaged with Slackware.

There have been no complaints from the Slack community about including Java's SDK in the past that I know about. So the issue is simple. What kind of a policy is it that determines what goes into the distro based on what fits on a CD?

I'd bet you lunch that the Java SDK has more overall value to more Slack people than emacs these days. I believe that there are a hell of a lot more Java coders in Slack-land than there are emacs users.

I'd rather see Slackware go to another CD than to start the precedent that we start eliminating packages because of some innane purpose to keep the number of disto CDs to only two.

I fail to see whatever logic Patrick is employing here.

Al
 
Old 01-28-2005, 05:11 PM   #10
gargamel
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Hmmm. Dilemma: You are all right.

(1) It's just as easy to get the JRE as to get the SDK. Why not drop it, as well? Does anyone really *need* the web browser plug-in JVM that is part of the JRE? Then just get it from the same place where the SDK is located.

(2) There are web based Java applications that just need the SDK to be installed. Eg, Track+ is a very good issue tracking solution based on J2EE. It needs a web container. And the web container needs a Java compiler in order to compile JSPs to Java byte code. To use or manage a web application doesn't make you a developer, does it?

So far it's undecided. But there's one argument that makes me hope that the SDK will continue to be part of Slackware.

All the people contributing to this thread may be lucky enough to have fast internet connections. In fact, if you have enough bandwidth to easily download the Java SDK or maybe even the bundle including NetBeans and Sun's web application server, then you have probably enough bandwidth to download *any* part of Slackware, or the distribution as a whole.

But most certainly there are quite a few people with analog modem or ISDN connections. They would really appreciate to be able to *use* the SDK (not necessarily for wirting their own code, as explained above). These people depend on the CD set. I feel it would be good to not let them down.

gargamel
 
Old 01-28-2005, 06:25 PM   #11
slakmagik
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Well, if Patrick gets around to dumping Gnome in Slack 11, maybe he'll put it back on disk2 - there'll be plenty of room then.

I personally don't see it as a big deal. Choices have to be made and almost no one's going to be thrilled with all of them. However, based on the 8 for, one ambivalent, one against the sdk decision in this thread, it looks like Pat made an excellent choice.
 
Old 01-28-2005, 06:42 PM   #12
gargamel
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You sum it up correctly.

But wasn't it possible that bias for dropping the JSDK the people who need software on CD don't "vote" due to the same reason they need it on CD: Slow inteernet connection?

Before I discovered Slack I used SuSE (I still use it on my laptop) and not too long ago I was very glad that tey put so many software packages on as many CD's as possible. With my 14400 kbps modem I'd never had the chance to get a complete Linux system up and running, complete in the sense "with everything I need for what I want to do with my computer." That was *one* reason why I opted for SuSE at that time.

And I am quite sure that there are quite a few people out there that do not yet have DSL, cable or WLAN access. These are the people who need the CDs most. The rest of us, be honest, would be happy to send a few quids just to support the great work of Patrick Volkdering even without getting the CDs.

Waht I am going to say is: The discussion going on here is *not* pointless, but we are probably not the right people to discuss this subject. Slackware users with analog modems or ISDN should vote here.

BTW: Wouldn't it be *that* bad if Slackware would be a 5 CD set? In any case I agree, of course, that Java doesn't have to be on disc one or two.

gargamel
 
Old 01-29-2005, 09:02 AM   #13
reddazz
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I have always preferred intalling the versions from the Sun website coz I could quickly upgrade if a new version came out, but I can understand that for people with slow internet conections java can be a pain in the backside to download.

Last edited by reddazz; 01-29-2005 at 11:55 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2005, 11:30 AM   #14
ringwraith
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Quote:
How do you know what most people who use Slack need? I could argue just as effectively that most people don't NEED gimp, or emacs, or vi or any one of a thousand things that get packaged with Slackware.
Or that the earth is flat... but to what point. You really believe there are more java developing Slackware users than those that mess around with the Gimp or that use vi or emacs?
Quote:

There have been no complaints from the Slack community about including Java's SDK in the past that I know about. So the issue is simple. What kind of a policy is it that determines what goes into the distro based on what fits on a CD?
Al, you know quite well what kind of policy it is. It is the policy of building a distro how Pat sees fit. You are a business owner. There are lots of decisions made based upon what the decision maker sees as his goal. Pat's goal for many years was to have the whole distro on 1 disk. KDE and Gnome got large enough that he had to put them on a second disk. As I recall you have stated that we are in good hands with Pat and his decision making.

Quote:

I'd bet you lunch that the Java SDK has more overall value to more Slack people than emacs these days. I believe that there are a hell of a lot more Java coders in Slack-land than there are emacs users.
I wish I could meet you for that lunch. I would take that bet. I know many people who use emacs for editing their conf files, coding in C, etc. There are even some who use emacs to read usenet news groups and read mail.


Quote:

I'd rather see Slackware go to another CD than to start the precedent that we start eliminating packages because of some innane purpose to keep the number of disto CDs to only two.

I fail to see whatever logic Patrick is employing here.

Al
You have already stated the logic he is employing. He wants to limit the size of his distro to what he thinks is acceptable. You just disagree with his logic.
 
Old 01-29-2005, 12:41 PM   #15
shepper
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Many other distros (Redhat/Fedora and Mandrake) do not include Java in any form due to licensing issues. The web is filled with howto's to install java and it's plugins or third party rpm's.

I think we are seeing a fundemental issue coming to the fore here and that is what Slackware is about.

I think that many decisions that Pat makes are pointed toward the stability you would want in a server.
For a server I would stay with the 2.4 kernel, Apache 1.3, no pam , etc.

If I were making a desktop I would go with the 2.6 kernel for the features (udev, built-in Alsa etc) that it offers.

I also do not think that the effort that Pat puts into gnome and kde really pay off for him. When a new version of KDE comes out the first packages available on the KDE mirror are Slackware packages. I have found 3 sources for a gnome desktop

I think where Slackware shines is that Pat builds a reliable core system that is a good base to build from.
What I would like to see happen is for Pat to make Several smaller versions of Slackware and in doing so focus more on the core of the system - a Slackware-server install iso based on the 2.4 kernel and a Slackware-desktop iso based on the 2.6 kernel. Hopefully the time he would save not messing with the /gnome and /kde desktops would allow for that.
 
  


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