Pat drops Java SDK
 

From the changelog:
d/jre-1_5_0_01-i586-1.tgz: Replaced j2sdk 1.5.0 with jre-1.5.0_01.
The full J2SDK is not needed by most people, and is making the first
Slackware test ISO too large (size limit on a replicated ISO is 670MB), so
an updated version of the JRE will replace it. If you need the full J2SDK,
it is easily obtained from Sun (at java.sun.com).
-----

I think it is bad policy to make decisions like this based upon what will fit on a CD. Slack is NOT for noobs. The SDK is NOT for noobs. Thus, I think it belongs in Slack... as it has been all along.

I don't do much in Java these days, but once in a while I like to play with it. I don't want to mess with a new install from Sun, having to hope their installer does not screw up something, and then deal with $PATH, symlinks, etc. One of the reasons I pay the $40 for Slack is because it does all of this for me on the install.

So what is next? GIMP is very large. Maybe it will be purged? How about emacs or vi? No one needs both!

Where is it written that Slack can't be more than 2 CDs... or 10 CDs. The whole philosophy of Slack is that you do what's "right" not just "what fits."

Please, Pat, put back the Java SDK and take out something else if you must.

Al Canton, President
Adams-Blake Company, Inc.
Jaya123: Your office on the web
http://www.jaya123.com

"non-noobs" along with everyone else, knows how to find java.sun.com

I agree

The Java(Sun's) included with Slack sucks anyways. I always remove it and use Blackdown.com's instead.

This thread is pretty pointless considering that MOST people don't need the JDK, and that's exactly why he removed it and put the JRE in it's place. Do you actually develop in Java and need the full JDK? Fine, go to java.sun.com and get it!

Here is my two cents worth. I could careless that javasdk is no longer included into slack. Those who want the SDK can still obtain it from sun, and install it, as for me, although I am learning how to program in java, I still prefer the C++ language, due to it's speed.

Java Runtime Environment (JRE) allows you to *run* Java programs.
Java Software Development Kit (SDK) allows you to *write* Java programs, as well as run them.

Can you tell me, in all honesty, that better than half of the people you know actually need the SDK over the JRE? Just because it's there for the taking doesn't mean that it should be on the ISO. If a majority of users aren't going to use it, then it's an enormous waste of bandwidth, not to mention adding unneeded bloat to a distro that I, personally, chose specifically because it isn't as bloated as a lot of other distros.

i guess every java-developer is able to install and setup the SDK.
so what's the prob. ?

egag

How do you know what most people who use Slack need? I could argue just as effectively that most people don't NEED gimp, or emacs, or vi or any one of a thousand things that get packaged with Slackware.

There have been no complaints from the Slack community about including Java's SDK in the past that I know about. So the issue is simple. What kind of a policy is it that determines what goes into the distro based on what fits on a CD?

I'd bet you lunch that the Java SDK has more overall value to more Slack people than emacs these days. I believe that there are a hell of a lot more Java coders in Slack-land than there are emacs users.

I'd rather see Slackware go to another CD than to start the precedent that we start eliminating packages because of some innane purpose to keep the number of disto CDs to only two.

I fail to see whatever logic Patrick is employing here.

Al

Hmmm. Dilemma: You are all right.

(1) It's just as easy to get the JRE as to get the SDK. Why not drop it, as well? Does anyone really *need* the web browser plug-in JVM that is part of the JRE? Then just get it from the same place where the SDK is located.

(2) There are web based Java applications that just need the SDK to be installed. Eg, Track+ is a very good issue tracking solution based on J2EE. It needs a web container. And the web container needs a Java compiler in order to compile JSPs to Java byte code. To use or manage a web application doesn't make you a developer, does it?

So far it's undecided. But there's one argument that makes me hope that the SDK will continue to be part of Slackware.

All the people contributing to this thread may be lucky enough to have fast internet connections. In fact, if you have enough bandwidth to easily download the Java SDK or maybe even the bundle including NetBeans and Sun's web application server, then you have probably enough bandwidth to download *any* part of Slackware, or the distribution as a whole.

But most certainly there are quite a few people with analog modem or ISDN connections. They would really appreciate to be able to *use* the SDK (not necessarily for wirting their own code, as explained above). These people depend on the CD set. I feel it would be good to not let them down.

gargamel

Well, if Patrick gets around to dumping Gnome in Slack 11, maybe he'll put it back on disk2 - there'll be plenty of room then. :D

I personally don't see it as a big deal. Choices have to be made and almost no one's going to be thrilled with all of them. However, based on the 8 for, one ambivalent, one against the sdk decision in this thread, it looks like Pat made an excellent choice. ;)

You sum it up correctly.

But wasn't it possible that bias for dropping the JSDK the people who need software on CD don't "vote" due to the same reason they need it on CD: Slow inteernet connection?

Before I discovered Slack I used SuSE (I still use it on my laptop) and not too long ago I was very glad that tey put so many software packages on as many CD's as possible. With my 14400 kbps modem I'd never had the chance to get a complete Linux system up and running, complete in the sense "with everything I need for what I want to do with my computer." That was *one* reason why I opted for SuSE at that time.

And I am quite sure that there are quite a few people out there that do not yet have DSL, cable or WLAN access. These are the people who need the CDs most. The rest of us, be honest, would be happy to send a few quids just to support the great work of Patrick Volkdering even without getting the CDs.

Waht I am going to say is: The discussion going on here is *not* pointless, but we are probably not the right people to discuss this subject. Slackware users with analog modems or ISDN should vote here.

BTW: Wouldn't it be *that* bad if Slackware would be a 5 CD set? In any case I agree, of course, that Java doesn't have to be on disc one or two.

gargamel

I have always preferred intalling the versions from the Sun website coz I could quickly upgrade if a new version came out, but I can understand that for people with slow internet conections java can be a pain in the backside to download.

Or that the earth is flat... but to what point. You really believe there are more java developing Slackware users than those that mess around with the Gimp or that use vi or emacs?
Al, you know quite well what kind of policy it is. It is the policy of building a distro how Pat sees fit. You are a business owner. There are lots of decisions made based upon what the decision maker sees as his goal. Pat's goal for many years was to have the whole distro on 1 disk. KDE and Gnome got large enough that he had to put them on a second disk. As I recall you have stated that we are in good hands with Pat and his decision making.

I wish I could meet you for that lunch. I would take that bet. I know many people who use emacs for editing their conf files, coding in C, etc. There are even some who use emacs to read usenet news groups and read mail.


You have already stated the logic he is employing. He wants to limit the size of his distro to what he thinks is acceptable. You just disagree with his logic.

Many other distros (Redhat/Fedora and Mandrake) do not include Java in any form due to licensing issues. The web is filled with howto's to install java and it's plugins or third party rpm's.

I think we are seeing a fundemental issue coming to the fore here and that is what Slackware is about.

I think that many decisions that Pat makes are pointed toward the stability you would want in a server.
For a server I would stay with the 2.4 kernel, Apache 1.3, no pam , etc.

If I were making a desktop I would go with the 2.6 kernel for the features (udev, built-in Alsa etc) that it offers.

I also do not think that the effort that Pat puts into gnome and kde really pay off for him. When a new version of KDE comes out the first packages available on the KDE mirror are Slackware packages. I have found 3 sources for a gnome desktop

I think where Slackware shines is that Pat builds a reliable core system that is a good base to build from.
What I would like to see happen is for Pat to make Several smaller versions of Slackware and in doing so focus more on the core of the system - a Slackware-server install iso based on the 2.4 kernel and a Slackware-desktop iso based on the 2.6 kernel. Hopefully the time he would save not messing with the /gnome and /kde desktops would allow for that.

Still, the "it does not fit on a CD" strategy is in sharp contrat to the much praised sound technical decisions in Slack. Maybe there *is* a technical argument here, I'd love to hear it then. We all want Slack to be managed according to technical criteria, right?

Ewww.. good, I don't install it anyways and rarely ever go download to install. I try to stay Java free.. ;)

My remark was not so much about Java, which I personally despise. It has the speed of an interpreted language with the flexibility of a compiled one, and it's portability is close to a myth. I'm more the Python type of programmer. Nevertheless, I've had some use for the Java compiler in the past.

My objection is more about regression. OK, Gnome was or is going to be dropped, and the reason was stability and overall impact on the Slackware architecture. That is a sound and technical decision, and I follow Pat on that blindly. I suppose the same applied to swaret, for example.

But Java SDK is part of the distro today, does not influence the stability in any way and is of some use. My point is that people should be able to expect packages to be supported in the next version unless there is a real (i.e. technical) problem with them. Maybe a license problem, if it's a serious one. But certainly not a 'oh, my CD is full' kind of problem.

If there's no space, go and add a CD, we'll pay the price. Pat has a working toolchain for compiling all these programs (not speaking about JDK here, but in general). And we use a distro like Slackware to save us time, otherwise we'd be watching Gentoo compiles all day.

Just my 2 cents...

Well, there wasn't a thing in the world wrong with fvwm95 and he dropped that, too. He's pasture-ized some other things over the course of time as well, of course. It's a well-established process and even has a special directory for those that aren't junked immediately. Didn't hear anyone complain about fvwm95 being jettisoned without technical grounds.

Putting 30 megs on a third CD is silly. So do we bloat the distro to fill it up and excuse the wasted resources or do we hold the line and keep Slack slim? I mean, CDs don't grow on trees and bandwidth isn't free.

And as far as the previous complaints - the SDK was *60 megs* - almost twice as big as the next biggest package. I don't think we can dump the kernel and glibc and whatnot and it makes more sense to chop off the biggest when it can be replaced with a 30 meg package that provides 100% of the functionality to 90% of the people and is easily replaced by most programmer's who need it who obviously have the knowledge and tend to have the bandwidth. The next best choice is to pick several packages whose functionality might not be so easily replaced and piss off *several* groups of people.

I partly agree with something shepper said - I'd like to see Slack even slimmer. I don't think Patrick wants to mess with multiple flavors of Slack but it'd be fine by me if he just focused on providing the essential base and junk kde/gnome/xap and large chunks of the other sections. But that would *really* have people upset. (I would like X itself, though - X can be a b*tch.)

Look, he's going to be dumping my mozilla soon and that can be a royal pain to build, too - if I can face *that* with good grace, I think people can handle losing the SDK. ;)

Come on, we all know that software tends to get larger and larger. So there will be more and more packages left out in the course of time, is that what most people want? It's not about putting 30 megs on a CD, it's about giving the distro some air when DVDs and ADSL have become standards. This does not prevent putting the pasture stuff on a 3rd CD and leave it to those who want or need it to download or buy.

Slackware comes with 2 CDs of source, how often do you need those? I mean, all of them? If I need to rebuild ALSA after a kernel update, fine, but downloading the source from an ftp server would be much less of a waste than the 2 source CDs. So I'd agree to the point that Slackware could be distributed on less CDs, say 3, but replacing the source by additional packages and possibly only the build scripts in case you want to build a more recent version.

Yes, Slackware has made me sufficiently knowledgeable to do package builds myself. But that's a waste of time, and it will be without Pat's "seal of stability". I agree that we do not have to have 5 WM around. But there's no alternative for a JDK if you have to compile Java, is there?

Slackware is above all meant to be technical and stable. To me, stability includes having an upgrade path from version 1 to version 2. I cannot see the upgrade path for Java SDK but the DIY option. While this may be ok in this special case, again, I believe it's not the best philosophy.

Yeah, we do, and also know it shouldn't - at least not like it does. "Perfection is achieved, not when there's no more to add, but when there's nothing left to take away."

This people do.

The GPL says you always do.

We're worried about people being able to download 60 megs of an SDK and you want anyone who wants the source to download over a gig?

As you yourself pointed out, there is an alternative - people should be using other languages. In fact, this could very well be the 'technical reason' you're looking for: java sucks. Pat dumped it.

I dunno. I'm not really looking to argue. I have no interest in the SDK at all. Just an interest in people not giving Pat a hard time unless he really deserves. :)

Take care.

If you look at slackware as being a server distro then if you need java support you will most probably want items beyond those in the SDK.

As a java developer I keep upto date by downloading from sun, ibm etc. and don't mind if Pat chooses to drop the SDK in favour of the JRE. That said I have never used emacs so will not miss it if Pat removes it as well.

I doubt you want to end up with just a kernel and the minimum userland programs. Not if there is no central repository to add what you need and a certain guarantee that some packages will always be supported in this manner. Other distros have this, but not Slackware. It is not needed as long as the distro is basically complete.

Also, you are entitled to have the source according to GPL, but my question was "do you need them?". That is obviously no if you have the precompiled packages. And even if you do, you just download what you need, not the whole stuff. Anyway, my concern is not downloading stuff as you put it.

Even if Java sucks, people use it to write programs. That's a fact of life, and there are good reasons for it, even if you and me would not do that. You are not going to change this by leaving JDK out - this is btw not a technical but a political choice in that case.

I am not giving Pat a hard time, I do not expect him to read these posts and I will not mail him about this. I am just trying to express that I believe there is a lack of coherence in these choices. Or I simply don't get it.

Anyway, Slackware is not democratic, otherwise we'd be in the same trouble as Debian. My only freedom is to chose another distro, which I will have to do if I do not agree with the way things go. At which point I *will* mail Pat to explain why I quit. But that's not too close I believe.

Regards,
-pu

you HAVE to provide the source code when you are selling GPL software. you don't get to choose wheather you want to or not. if you sell GPL-licensed software and don't give the customer the source code, then you are violating the GPL license - PERIOD.

of course most people don't need the source code - that's why when you download slackware for free through the internet you can choose wheather or not you want to download the source code - but as soon as money enters the equation, the source must be present in the box.

I was not aware of that. Thanks for pointing this out.

You do not have to supply the source code with the sale of a cd. It only needs to be "available".
Look at Linspire. They have been dancing around with the GPL and no where on their cd or on any computer that comes preloaded with the Linspire OS will you find any source code. Although it is hard to find, source code is available on their web site.

from http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html :

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

Seems to me that shepper is right.

Actually, I would. I'd very much like to see the first disc being nothing but precompiled kernel (2.4 and 2.6 as a choice), compilers, libraries, network connectivity, X (you can use TWM for what I'm suggesting), and Firefox/Thunderbird (those chosen because of their size, not necessarily because of any preference). That's it, that's all.

Personally, I'd rather see a minimal distro CD like that of NetBSD. Download a 150-200mb ISO that'll get you online where you can download the specific packages you intend to use. And for those that want to buy the CD's, the apps come bundled on two CD's: one for developpers/servers, and one for a desktop environment.

Think about it a sec: I dunno about you, but I'm not using KOffice or AbiWord. I'm not using emacs or vi. For plain text editors, I actually prefer nano, but I'm willing to put up with pico. For office productivity, I use OpenOffice.org. I'm not too fond of Gnome, and I have absolutely no need for development environments because all of the development/coding I do is with php. The only "server" I need on my laptop or desktop is Samba, and that only so that I can connect to my network drive. I don't need the BSD games. I don't even need CUPS since my printer is a piece of crap whose performance under Linux would be improved by blast of 20-guage.

Now think about how much bandwidth I have to waste to get what I want out of Slack. How much of my bandwidth, and how much bandwidth belonging to the websites hosting it. The bandwidth isn't a problem if you're going to buy the CD's: it's practically the same if they're sending you 1 CD or 5 of them. If I'm downloading it, it's a whole lot of extra time for stuff I don't need and have no intention of ever using.

Why on earth should I have to download 1.3GB of stuff so that I can use 350mb of it? The base distro CD should be that 200MB of it that every single installation of Slack needs, and no more. The rest of it should be on separate CD's, or as individual packages you can download. Of course, that's only my opinion.

yeah, it makes sense... my bad...

so basically one doesn't have to actually include the source code in the box, as long as one includes at least a URL or something where one could get it... and according to this, i think one could even legally charge extra for access to the code:
i don't understand what "for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution" means, though...

I think it means that you cannot make a profit selling CD's of source code because you would essentially be profiting from the work of the developers.

I believe that this condition has been pushed in the past. Linspire was trying to sell a single cd of OpenOffice for around $20 U.S. This seems a little steep when one considers that a four disk set of Fedora 3 can be had for around the same price.

Hmmmm. A very interesting discussion indeed. In the end though is Pat's distro. If you don't like it, fork a version with the sdk in place of some other packages you don't like. It's the great thing about Linux, your not helpless unless you choose to be. I personally could give a rip. Don't use java and praying I never will. But that's just me. I'm not going to force my personal opinions on other people. And seeing as how I haven't heard much of a fuss from just about anyone until now I don't think Pat will even much care. If you're that concerned then you should seriously discuss it with Pat. I know for a fact he does reply to his emails. Just don't attack him for taking out the sdk but try to reason with him and notify him of reasons why he should keep it and possible ways of doing it. I'll tell you right now though another disk is absolutely out of the question. When it went to 2 disks quite a few people freaked, including myself. Adding a third just for java is pure insanity. I still only use one disk for install because I have all the newest packages on my server so I just use that as a local repository and install kde/gnome after the fact. Or have the updated packages and some of my scripts/conf files burned to a dvd. Also, even if you have dial-up you just download it and burn it to a disk. Then you won't have to download it again. For a long time I could only use my Sprint cellphone for internet. It was slow as heck too but once the packages were done i backed them up. Less to download next time. So this is just a minor inconvenience for some. Not a *major* problem. Just not the ideal situation for some.

We have the answer! Good job digiot!

HEY!!

is it still gonna be on the site?
if not I"m only slightly annoyed anyway.. I haven't done any java for over a year and NEVER intend to do it again.. I only used it because my AP computer science class was based on it.. and I was a little pissed because it was c++ the year before. and I love c/c++
if he's not gonna make the package available at all because it won't fit on a cd I don't really care what he's done in the past.. he's dumb.. and is there not an enormous amount of space now that gnome is toast in slackware?

Why?
Like you I find it very good that I can install a running system from one CD. But I don't mind if there are additional CD's with more software packages, that I may or may not use. What's wrong with having the users make their own decisions?

As I said, there's no question that it should be possible to install a working system from CD 1. Which is one of so many good features of Slackware, that shouldn't be changed.

This is a thing that I used to like with SuSE: I never used disc 5 (DVD 2). And, BTW, another good thing that Pat might well copy from SuSE is distributing on CD's and DVD's alike. It's convenient, if you have a DVD drive, and still no restriction, if you don't.

gargamel

I don't know if he will be putting out a DVD version any time soon. Besides, there is a DVD iso floating around somewhere of slack 10.....

My point was (and is) that Slackware decisions should
-1- be based on technical decisions only and
-2- provide an upgrade path from one version to the next.

More or less CDs, Java sucks or does not are not the point at all. They should be inferred from the above principles.

I do agree with gargamel that it's nice to install a system from CD or DVD. In a professional environment like the one where I work, this is appreciated by both the security department and the system people alike.

I understand where your coming from. I completely respect your opinion. It's just that to me its Pat's distro. Not saying he just arbitrarily does what he wants without merit, but it is his.

Plus, if pat had to choose something that takes up alot of room and isn't *ABSOLUTELY* necessary to the system then I support that and it seems that alot of people do not have a problem with it. Thats what sucks about being in the minority. :-\

It's not like he just said, "Hey no java period". He replaced it with the jre which is enough for *most* of the users of slackware to use whatever java app might be needed. And if you want the SDK just go get it. It sucks for some people but Pat can't please everyone. If he could he would be making millions on self help tapes and charging people $500 to go to his seminars. But he isn't, and he can't please everyone. So take the good with the bad. It's still the same slackware. Just now you have to go and download one package.

I just wanted to say that I was not the person writing a mail to Distrowatch about this issue (cf. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050131#3). Although I agree totally, I wouldn't try to influence Pat in this way - I'd rather send a mail to him personally.

I really don't want to stretch this subject over the point, but...

• - yes, of course, Slackware is Pat's distro, no doubt about it!
  - Nevertheless, he listens to users. Remember the switch from XFree86 to Xorg, which was triggered by the community, as Pat states.
  - Is it a technical decision to drop something because it doesn't fit on a CD?
  - If dropping things that aren't necessary, then there are a couple of hundreds candidates more than the Java SDK and Gnome....
  - No problem for me being in the minority in this thread. As I said: I subscribed to Slackware just to support its development, but I install a new release usually before I receive the CD box.

But this thread raises a couple of more general questions:

• - Who needs the CD box?
  - Could it be that people needing the CDs are not taking part in discussions like this one, for the same reasons they need the CDs?
  - How many such users are there?
  - Would it make sense to switch the subscription to a CD-less system --- no CDs, but Email support for, say, half the price?

I don't know the answers. Maybe Pat does. Maybe he doesn't care. Anyway, I'll respect his decision. After all, his decisions have made Slackware what it is: The Linux distribution we all love so much.

gargamel

Seeing as how this thread just keeps popping up, I'll contribute some of my more recent thoughts.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, because of Pat dropping JavaSDK, it can be downloaded, and it is not really anything that crucial for the system to be kept in place. Those who need the SDK can just download it, and as for myself, although I am learning how to program in Java, (because it is a prerequisit for my bachelors in computer science), I don't care if I have to download the SDK, I had to do it anyways, because in my class we have to use the NetBeans sdk 4.0, but anyways, having programming experience in C++, all be it not enough, I still fail to see the importance of Java. I myself don't like the language, since to me it just seems that Sun Microsystems took the C/C++ language, and crippled it. I mean, Java is based off of C/C++, with a lot of key features taken out, and also it is run through an interpretor instead of a compiler. I have even asked my professor about any advantage about java, besides being "multi-platform" which to me is not worth it, due to the loss of speed, I would just say tweak your C/C++ code for that particular platform, and all is well, rather than use java. So besides the "multi-platform" arguement, which I find bogus, the other real reason is that it lacks the use of pointers, and makes things easier. What thats it? No pointers? Big deal. I admit that even I myself had a hard time grasping pointers when learning C++, but who cares, pointers can usually be one of the hard parts of C/C++ to grasp. It took me little effort, but I got it. To me, Java seems more like a programming language for those who don't really want to learn how to program , but can say that 'they have written code.' And although I am not trying to boast too much about C++, cause in my opinion, a true programmer can also program in assembly, and I'm no where near that kind of level, and probably never will be, but for an everyday programming language, and use, to me Java just doesn't cut it, not for cross platform, nor for web pages either. To me, Java has pretty much left a bitter taste in my mouth, and no amount of sugar and cream, can make it any better. Well thats my rant, thanks for putting up with it, look forward to any further thoughts to this.

I'm out of this thread, practically speaking, so I'm not going to say anything about a lot of things, but just to clarify: he's dropping Gnome because it's a semi-incompetent mess that's a pain to build and drains time and resources. I see it as having a side effect of slimming Slack, but that's not the point or reason.

Yeah, the SDK/JRE decision is size-based. Which people seem to not regard as a technical decision. If he'd said I'm dropping the Java stuff because the version numbers are stupid I think you could say that not particularly technical. If he'd said I'm dropping the Java stuff because it's a stupid name you could really say it was completely untechnical. But the logistics of producing a distro carry their own 'technicalities'. Let's say Patrick had 10 billion of those fancy 4-CD-holding-boxes made because it was cheaper and he's still got 5 billion left. Then Slackware's going to technically need to stay at 4 CDs to fit in the damn box for awhile. I'm not saying this is the case (no pun intended :D ) but something along these lines could very well be. -- And if that were the case, Slackware wouldn't be able to go CD-less without a loss even if that were a good idea otherwise.

Anyway - like I say, I'm out - cuss out Pat for dropping the SDK, I give up. Just had to point out that Gnome and the SDK are separate issues. (And mozilla, if dropped, would be still a third issue - a combination of size, build pains, and what most people actually use, since there are so few of us mozilla dinosaurs left.)

digiot: Thanks for clearing the different motivations up.

jeebiz: Actually the discussion here is not on the pros and cons of Java language... And BTW, as every real programmer knows: A problem that can't be solved in FORTRAN isn't worth to be solved, at all! ;-)

gargamel

For Slack 10.1:
That should satisfy *everybody*. ;)

He's still my hero (even without Java SDK)
;-)

He listens.

To us.


:D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool:


(And there are rumours of people thinking that other distros are more "user friendly"; whatever that means then there...)


gargamel

Gargamel, I like the way you think. I can only wonder how many of the young whipper-snappers running around here would know FORTRAN if they tripped over it.....


As for the JRE vs JSDK debate....I avoid Java like the plague, so it doesn't affect my day to day activities either way. There have been a few good points made, however. I really do enjoy the fact that I can install a working system with only 1 cd (now that I've dumped KDE). Even, then, I find myself omitting/removing quite a few packages.

The idea of multiple Slackware distro's customized to home users, servers, developers, etc. is an interesting one, but I'd be willing to bet that such a task is much too large for Pat to handle himself. That being said, I like the idea that there is (basically) one guy who makes sure that the product which goes out the door is stable, secure and fully operational. I've never used Debian (so please don't attack me), but I can't imagine that changing leaders every year is good for the overall direction of the project. To take that argument one step further, just look at the success Ubuntu is having. My impression of Ubuntu is that they are doing all the things that Debian does, but faster (and doing so, making the users happy).

In light of that situation, I would much rather have Pat make the decisions for Slackware and if it happens that I have to go beyond him for apps I want, then so be it.

At the end of the day, you can't argue with the fact that Slackware is the oldest surviving Linux distro and Pat has been in charge from day one.

Does that mean gnome is gone for good? :D

Well, a sad thing is that there's no comparable distro out here. Like most of us (I suppose), I regularily check out other distros. But I keep finding out that nothing compares to Slackware.

I believe it's sad because it means that in this so-called "world of choices", you really cannot chose...

Stop whining and read the release notes
 

Has anyone read the Release notes for 10.1?

Here's a snip


>---------------------------------------------------------------------<
Slackware's default install now includes Sun's Java(TM) 2 Runtime
Environment (JRE) rather than the full Java Software Development Kit.
This is primarily due to the ever-growing size of the full Java SDK;
it is now too large to fit on either of the first two (install) ISO
images. A standard replicated disc has a factory limit of 670MB, and
there just aren't enough bits to include the full Java(TM) 2 SDK
there. My apologies if you are inconvenienced by this change.
Luckily, after working out the breakdown of the third ISO image it
was discovered that there was just barely enough room to include the
J2SDK in the /extra directory there. The Java(TM) SDK is not likely
to fit on the next release of Slackware (11) though, so in the future
those of you who require the full Java Software Development Kit will
need to download it from java.sun.com. I will continue to include
the scripts to convert the .bin file to a .tgz, so this shouldn't
present too much difficulty.
>------------------------------------------------------------------<

OK? You'll find the SDK in the Extra directory of your Slackware CD.

Re: Stop whining and read the release notes
 

Have you read this thread?

Keep up. Who in the last several posts has been 'whining', anyway?