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Old 08-28-2011, 06:50 AM   #1
mcnalu
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java future


What implications does this have for java in slackware?

http://www.reddit.com/tb/jwuot

In short: Other distros are no longer able to distribute java as they did previously and must turn to openJDK.

I looked for openJDK on slackbuilds.org but didn't find anything.
 
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Old 08-28-2011, 09:30 AM   #2
Thor_2.0
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The first distro I had, did not even ship with Sun's Java. I had to install it myself.

I had the same issue more than two years ago...it's still the same. Shipping Java may not be clever...it's faster and cleaner to download it from the site...

OpenJDK was okay...but I needed the console, OpenJDK did not have that, then, dunnow if it has it now, though...

Thor
 
Old 08-28-2011, 09:34 AM   #3
dugan
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Quote:
For the story, due to license reasons, the version of Java packaged in Linux distributions is not the same as the one released on the official website.
Each time a new version of Java is was released, Sun/Oracle people are were publishing a other distro specific release available on a dedicated website.
First, Slackware never included the "distro specific release" JDK. Slackware always included the "official website" JDK. It's "distro release specific" JDK that's being retired.

If this becomes a problem, then I would expect the JDK to just be dropped.

For a Slackware end-user (with broadband), it would be as easy to install the Sun JDK from SBo or another third party repository as it would be to install it from /extra.

I'm also under the impression that no-one in the world has ever succeeded in building OpenJDK on Slackware.

EDIT: someone "in the world" has:

Step By Step Building OpenJDK on Slackware

Last edited by dugan; 08-28-2011 at 09:51 AM.
 
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:28 PM   #4
mcnalu
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Ok, thanks - makes sense now.

I may have a play with openJDK if I can find the time.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 04:49 PM   #5
kingbeowulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
EDIT: someone "in the world" has:

Step By Step Building OpenJDK on Slackware
LOL, even with google translate this is going to take some brain power to follow. I my have to give it a whack. There are a few Java apps I must run.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 05:28 PM   #6
ReaperX7
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I have known certain packages can be redistributed as long as a copy of the original license document is included and the distributed package is able to be redistributed and contains no changes other than how the package medium is applied for installation purposes.

I'm certain the original packager could be replaced with a SlackBuild script to auto-download and install the proper files if there was a problem with the license, like the Adobe FlashPlayer has been done.

Of course Patrick will have the last word, so we can only wait and see what he wants to do.
 
Old 08-28-2011, 07:58 PM   #7
gargamel
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As long as there are no license issues, I hope, that things stay the way they are. I know of no other system, where the JDK can be installed so easily as in Slackware.

A big advantage is, that we have the original JDK in a current version on Slackware. And as we don't have distro specific packages, we don't run into dependency hell, like some others do. E. g., if you have Eclipse installed, you cannot upgrade the JDK in some distros with dependency resolving package managers, because the package manager will tell you, the Eclipse depends on the old version currently installed in your system. Which is nonsens, most of the time. Usually you can do the upgrade, and Eclipse will run just fine. But in other distros Eclipse depends on the JDK an Ant, Ant depends on the JDK, etc.

Guess, it depends on Oracle, which no good news, I am afraid. I'd not be surprised, if they would start charging money for the JDK (and VirtualBox etc.), or change the license, so that the JDK can no longer be included, just as easily.

But as of now, there seems to be no need for action. Don't fix it, if it ain't broke!

gargamel
 
Old 08-29-2011, 05:22 AM   #8
Alien Bob
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It pretty much says here: http://jdk-distros.java.net/ that Linux distributors (and that includes Slackware Linux) are expected to build and distribute OpenJDK... as opposed to Linux users who are still allowed to download the Java binaries for personal use only.

And if you think you had a prior agreement as a Linux distributor to include official Java binaries with your distro, then you better look at http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/ja...nse/index.html which is the "Oracle Binary Code License Agreement for the Java SE Platform Products". You'll notice that it explicitly states:
Quote:
12. INTEGRATION. This Agreement is the entire agreement between you and Oracle relating to its subject matter. It supersedes all prior or contemporaneous oral or written communications, proposals, representations and warranties and prevails over any conflicting or additional terms of any quote, order, acknowledgment, or other communication between the parties relating to its subject matter during the term of this Agreement. No modification of this Agreement will be binding, unless in writing and signed by an authorized representative of each party.
I.e. any prior agreements with Sun and/or Oracle are null and void. Slackware is not allowed (like is the case with all other Linux distros) to ship future releases of the official JRE and JDK binaries.

Eric
 
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Old 08-29-2011, 05:28 AM   #9
ReaperX7
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I doubt they'll ever charge for JDK or VirtualBox due to the OSE structuring Sun left in place before they were assimilated into the Oracle Borg collective.

Oracle is by no means a fair player but they aren't stupid to clamp off their free products and lose customers to VMWare and other Java kits that are free.

The installer for Slackware is very much the most pain free. Due to manual dependency resolving.

As far as Debian and it's clones, as well as others, dropping support for the Oracle JDK...

Really if Slackware can keep the Oracle JDK without license issues... Who gives a flying f*ck what other distros do? It's not anyones fault but their own they can't resolve licensing issues... which they do about as well as resolving dependencies.

I've dealt with license issues a few times (not enough the get my ears wet mind you) but most of the time as long as the original license is honored and distributed with the package and the package is intact with all the files and has not been modified other than for the installation medium (as in added to or stripped down), it's legal.
 
Old 08-29-2011, 05:59 AM   #10
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I don't do JAVA because of it's poor security record (just like flash) and I don't normally walk in Java circles, so I may be off the mark here, but I'm sure I read something about OpenJDK becoming the 'reference implementation' for Java 7 SE, so it's future may look somewhat different anyway.


Ahhh... here you go http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/entry...openjdk_as_the
 
Old 08-29-2011, 06:24 AM   #11
Alien Bob
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Slackware will not be allowed to keep shipping JRE and JDK the way it used to (re-packaging the official binaries). But there are two alternatives to that: either Slackware will ship OpenJDK instead (compiled from source) or it will ship only a jre.SlackBuild and jdk.SlackBuild script which enables you, the Slackware user, to package and install the official Java binaries painlessly.

Eric
 
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Old 08-29-2011, 08:51 AM   #12
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
or it will ship only a jre.SlackBuild and jdk.SlackBuild script which enables you, the Slackware user, to package and install the official Java binaries painlessly.
Are license issues the reason Google Chrome is packaged like this?

mclau: now that we know what the two options are, how about adding a poll to the thread?

Last edited by dugan; 08-29-2011 at 09:31 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2011, 09:32 AM   #13
Richard Cranium
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Originally Posted by GazL View Post
I don't do JAVA because of it's poor security record (just like flash) [...]
Now I'm curious; what language do you "do"?
 
Old 08-29-2011, 09:43 AM   #14
GazL
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Mostly C these days. Though I still have a soft spot for Pascal/Delphi.

My comment was more about the implementation than the language though.

Last edited by GazL; 08-29-2011 at 09:45 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2011, 10:25 AM   #15
BlackRider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Bob View Post
Slackware will not be allowed to keep shipping JRE and JDK the way it used to (re-packaging the official binaries). But there are two alternatives to that: either Slackware will ship OpenJDK instead (compiled from source) or it will ship only a jre.SlackBuild and jdk.SlackBuild script which enables you, the Slackware user, to package and install the official Java binaries painlessly.

Eric
In my opinion, when a vendor starts acting stupidly, his work should be dropped out if possible, just as many GNU/Linux distros and BSD did with ION3. No body likes to deal with an idiot. I have never had a problem with OpenJDK, so my vote goes to include it and forget about Oracle's greed. An SlackBuild for original JRE and JDK could be placed in /extra in order to keep everyone happy.

BTW, if they start charging for VirtualBox, I'll use Qemu/KVM. They know that there are virtualization alternatives out there, so they are unlikely to suicide this way.

Last edited by BlackRider; 08-29-2011 at 10:28 AM.
 
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