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Old 10-24-2003, 01:36 PM   #16
J.W.
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grassapa - you are making a wise decision to set up your friend with a regular user account. Even if he "doesn't know jack about computers", explaining how to input a username and password will be something he can understand. I don't know what this guy's level of inexperience is, but if he honestly doesn't know anything about computers (ie, doesn't know how to use a browser, or send an Email, or create a text document, or use a mouse, etc) then he'll have a lot of learning to do anyway, and educating him about logging in using an ID/PW will be a highly useful lesson.

As for reasons why it's a bad idea to regularly log in as root, the reason is simple: Root has all privileges to perform all actions on the system. In other words, there is nothing that root can be blocked from doing, and therefore you need to exercise extreme care when running any commands as root, since those commands *will* be executed. To illustrate, if you run a command to delete some files, they will be removed -- you won't get a nice little "Are you sure?" prompt like you might in Windows. Now, as long as you have correctly specified the files you want to delete, there will be no problem, but suppose that just as you press Enter, out of the corner of your eye you notice that your command contains a typo. Hmm, well now it gets interesting, and depending on what command actually got executed and which files got deleted, you can end up with a system that will no longer be functional, and you'll need to reinstall your entire OS. That's not good, and you especially wouldn't want to give those kinds of privileges to somebody who doesn't "know jack".

There was another poster here at LQ who compared logging in as root to putting on a "giant robot suit", which I thought was a great analogy. Sure, you can run around being unstoppable and crushing everything in your path, but if you accidentally step on something you didn't mean to, you can inflict a lot of damage. Therefore, you should only put on the giant robot suit in rare, specific situations, and only when you really need to. In any event, good luck with things. -- J.W.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 01:38 PM   #17
nvn
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Quote:
Originally posted by grassapa why is it so dangerous to be root? i know you can mess up your computer but you, or at least I, wouldnt do anything that you think it can be damaging to your computer. Every kind of config i make, i would consult it first on the net, and then do it.[/B]
Ehh?? Surf the net as root!? Now that's an interesting approach to 'not doing things that might cause damage to the computer' etc.

There's really nothing to argue about here. Be root as little as possible. Preferably never. Very easy.

And why, may I ask, do you want to deliver a badly set up computer? I may be a little extreme in my opinion (though I hope not), but I think one has a responsibility when using a computer connected to the Internet. If you haven't got a driver's licence, you haven't got the right to drive a car. Similarly, I believe that if you're using a computer with an Internet connection, you should be obliged to know the basics of computer security (and apply that knowledge well), since your mess-up could cause problems for other people.

The security policy of Slackware is very nice. The little time saved by not having to su in order to do installations etc is no reason to make system security Windows-ish.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 01:43 PM   #18
nvn
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Quote:
Originally posted by wapcaplet Anyone who does know a little about Linux might decide to play a prank on your friend (or on you, while you're away from your computer), open up a console and type 'rm -rf /', thus wiping out your hard drive in the blink of an eye.[/B]
Horrible thought! That might happen by mistake also (or so I've heard...never tested it. ). Imagine if you happen to have root privileges, and want to remove a folder, say /yada/blah. Nice thing if your thumb slips when typing:

rm -rf / yada/blah

Oops. One space too many.

Last edited by nvn; 10-24-2003 at 01:46 PM.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 04:40 PM   #19
grassapa
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the reason i want him to use linux is so he gets started on the right foot. I dont want him to ever hear about windows. And no, hes not a friend, i dont even know him and i dont care about what he does right or wrong with linux. and he's is an older person and i dont think any of his friends would play a trick on him, they know jack about computers.

In my case, i would use root for now since my friends dont know linux, and if i used windows my friends could do the same, only easier.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 04:52 PM   #20
grassapa
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OK OK, let me get this straight. I dont know this guy, and never will and hes not a friend. Im setting up this laptop because the guy who owns the laptop is going to give it to his friend for free so he asked me to set it up. None of them knows about computers so it would be the same for him if i set up linux, windows or dosshell (lol, dosshell). But, what i dont want, is him not being able to do whatever he wants. thats why i want to set him up as root. I'd rather let him do whatever he wants than complaining to me that he cant "change his preferences".

As for me, I use linux with kde as root because im used to have all control over my computer. Im a noob at linux commands but not such a noob as being careful. I wont delete any files because if i did, i would know not to delete linux files, only the ones i create. and i wont delete anything in the command prompt. As for netsurfing as root, im used to it since i do it in windows all the time, and the only hassle i've had for so many years has been the blaster virus. as for my friends playing a prank on me, i would put a screen lock or something on my screensaver and bios password and thats it, my friends arent comp geeks anyways.

maybe later, as i get better at linux and commands, i might wanna not work as root all the time, but for now, its ok i believe.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 05:22 PM   #21
J.W.
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????? grassapa -- you are missing the point. You should NOT (repeat NOT) log in as root as the default. What everybody is trying to tell you is that since root is all-powerful, you should only use it in limited, specific situations. You yourself admit that you are a Linux newbie, and therefore, your chances of accidentally performing a serious, detrimental action are way higher right now than they'd be 6 or 12 months later, after you do become more familiar with Linux. Lastly, despite your assertions that you will only delete files that you've created yourself, that's not really the point - you can damage your system by moving files, copying over files, deleting files, editing files, etc, etc. It's your system and obviously if you really want to run as root all the time, well, nobody can stop you, but it's just a really REALLY bad idea. Good luck with things, but unless your typing and mouse movements are absolutely perfect 100% of the time, you might want to consider making full backups of your system once or twice a day. Regards -- J.W.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 07:48 PM   #22
grassapa
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ok, i just dont get why all the fear about root. ive used all windowses and dos for years as admin (or root) and ive never had trouble with system files, i dont know why i should have them now. Of course, with linux i follow guidelines, i always save a backup copy first, then modify the system file. If i had to worry more about admin or root rights, it should be on windows, cuz on windows problems are harder to fix. Also, since im a linux newb, that means i wont be changing a lot of stuff, so im not afraid of even harming sys files since im barely touching them. Note that im a linux newb, but that doesnt mean im a computer newb. I know what and what not to do and common sense helps. Why would i delete, overwrite, change sys files?
As i said, as i get better with linux, i will want to change more stuff and therefore i would restrict the use of root, but for now, its ok.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 07:51 PM   #23
grassapa
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the more newb you are, the more youre afraid of the sys files, the more precautions you take and the less errors you make. its when you feel good and cocky and when you would least expect it, then oops. ive learned that thru many things, like driving, building a computer, etc.
 
Old 10-24-2003, 08:51 PM   #24
quatsch
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no one here is doubting that you're careful. The trouble is that mistakes can happen. In windows, it is very unlikely that a noob will mess with the registry - b/c he probably won't even know how to start regedit or something similar. In linuix, those settings are all plain text files. If you open them in an editor as root b/c you want to learn, you could mess with it by accident; you touch a key on the keyboard by accident and then if you don't know how to reverse you have a good chance of not being able to boot into X any more and then you will HAVE to use the command line and good luck there if you are a noob. I am speaking from my own experience....

Also remember that root is a whole lot more powerful than someone with 'administrator' privileges on windows. If you're root, your orders will be executed at once, no questions asked.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 12:36 AM   #25
J.W.
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grassapa - as quatsch correctly states, "mistakes can happen". To use another analogy - consider driving a car without using your seatbelt. Now, I don't know how good or bad a driver are, but chances are close to 100% that on any given car trip, you aren't going to get into a collision with another vehicle, and therefore whether you were wearing your seatbelt or not will be irrelevant. But, on the unexpected chance that maybe something bad does happen and you are involved in a collision, you are significantly better off wearing the seatbelt than not. Likewise, maybe you can run your apps as root without a problem, but on the off chance that you make a mistake, the consequences can be severe.

As I said before, it's your call whether or not you want to log in as root (equivalent to NOT wearing your seatbelt) but any sensible/knowledgable Linux person would say that's a poor decision. Personally, it really makes no difference to me whether you decide to run root all the time or not, but I'll guarantee that in the Linux community, if you were to announce that "Hey, I run *all* my apps as root all the time", chances are VERY high that people will either start laughing at you or ask "Come on - be serious, that's the stupidest thing you could possibly do." Whatever though, it's your machine. Regards -- J.W.

Last edited by J.W.; 10-25-2003 at 12:37 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 06:19 AM   #26
grassapa
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quatsch, if i open a sys file in a text editor in xwindows, or even in the command prompt using pico, it would ask me if i want to save the changes. and being admin in windows is the same as being root in linux. I could say "Oh never use windows as admin because you could accidentaly change your system files, or you could accidentally type format c: instead or a: and oops"
youre right, a noob wouldnt start regedit, but im a linux noob and i wouldnt know how to start anything complicated, maybe later as i do more complicated things, i will limit the use of root.

about the driving analogy, its a good one, except while drivng, a mistake could not be your fault, and in the case of linux, all mistakes are your fault. Yes, maybe while online, crackers could mess you up, but then again that happens more on windows than linux and i've been fine in windows for years, no firewall nor antivirus.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 06:20 AM   #27
grassapa
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im not trying to convice you guys to use root cuz i know its a lot of people vs. a minority. but im just expressing my views which you cant say they are completely false.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 07:45 AM   #28
nvn
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Originally posted by grassapa Yes, maybe while online, crackers could mess you up, but then again that happens more on windows than linux and i've been fine in windows for years, no firewall nor antivirus.
Oh, I completely missed that you're a psychic.

Listen...if you aren't running any antivirus software, nor a firewall (and I find it quite unlikely that you're spending the days sniffing your network and reading logs), you have absolutely no idea what's going on with your computer.

I particularly like the following scenario:

[hard knocking on front door]
resident: Uh? Who's there?
[door slams open, kicked in]
FBI: The FBI! Freeze!
resident: WTF?
FBI: Your computer has participated in a DDoS attack against whitehouse.gov!
resident: Uh...
FBI: That's an act of terrorism...prepare to die, punk!
resident: But-
[shotgun blasts]

Get the picture? It's not a necessity for virii to show any directly obvious signs of infection on the infected computer.

As for the "but im just expressing my views which you cant say they are completely false" part...yes, we can, 'cause they are.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 09:14 AM   #29
g00$e
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To break the trend here I say go for it. Let the guy run as root. Your house will not burn down, your penis will not fall off, and aliens won't come down from Alpha Centuri and enslave you to farm wool socks.

It is not recommend but hey for some the only way to learn the stove is hot is to touch it.
 
Old 10-25-2003, 10:41 AM   #30
grassapa
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lol nvn, thats a funny scenario. Funny thing, i rarely hear about those cases, if ever. It did happen to this kid (just now it came on the news) and he said he was cracked so it wasnt his fault. too bad crackers and terrorists have better things to do than using your computer for hacking (like stealing money, steal confidential information, etc), especially if you are one in millions and millions. I'd be more worried about everyday commuting, 2nd hand smoking and cancer-from-cellphone or even lightning from rain than a cracker using my computer to hack into some website (which most of them dont even matter i.e. yahoo, etc). You're in more danger using windows with antivirus than linux without antivirus since most attacks are targeted towards windows anyways. And g00$e is right, let me use root until i find out what exactly makes root dangerous, but so far, the reasons you guys have given me dont scare me at all.
 
  


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