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Old 07-12-2006, 07:38 PM   #91
J.W.
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My 2 cents:

1. Automounting makes sense. (After all, you do have an /etc/fstab that basically does the same thing for your hard drives, right?) Besides, given the nature of a USB device, it makes perfect sense to assume that once the user plugs in the USB device, he/she intends to use it. To use an analogy, do people usually get into their cars, put the keys into the ignition, and then *not* start the car for another 30 or 60 minutes while they do other things? No. Granted, there may be certain rare occasions where this happens, but 99 times out of 100, putting the keys into the ignition is immediately followed by starting the car. Similarly, plugging a USB device into a PC is an equally clear signal to the computer that the user wants to start using that device. Why hassle the user by making him/her do a manual mount? There's just no point.

2. Dropline will probably always have have some baggage surrounding it due to Pat's position on it. However, while I do not currently use Dropline, I consider it to be one of the main factors that got me hooked on Linux. In my case, I really wanted to use Evolution, but since it wasn't included as part of the Slack installation, I needed to do it myself. I tried on multiple occasions to get that done, but I just couldn't. Fortunately, I stumbled across Dropline, which did include Evolution, and it made the installation as smooth as silk. I was totally stoked - I was using my favorite distro and my favorite Email client, and for me, that was a big deal. Personally, I would recommend that all Slackers at least give Dropline a try, then decide for themselves whether or not it's worthwhile.

As I said, just my 2 cents
 
Old 07-12-2006, 10:39 PM   #92
ciotog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zborgerd
Just out of curiosity, what are these mildly derisive comments that you speak of in regards to the other choices? On the contrary, I believe that most folks (except for blatant trolls and the misinformed) are quite supportive of all of the GNOME options for Slackware.
Not necessarily in this thread, but I have noticed it in others. I must say you are very diplomatic and a great spokesperson for DLG, and quite some time ago when I decided to upgrade all the Gnome packages even though I wasn't using Gnome as my DE, I probably used DLG because of your presence here.

Having said that, I don't think DLG was the right choice in hindsight and I wish I had tried one of the other ones first (I had actually attempted to install Gnome by hand first, and was reasonably successful). Lack of time motivated me to just stick with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.W.
To use an analogy, do people usually get into their cars, put the keys into the ignition, and then *not* start the car for another 30 or 60 minutes while they do other things? No.
Funny that most cars still require you to put the key in the ignition and turn it to start, then
 
Old 07-13-2006, 12:27 AM   #93
liquidtenmilion
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The only reason they do that is so that there is protection so that somebody can't jsut get in your car and drive away >_>
 
Old 07-13-2006, 04:01 AM   #94
J.W.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
Funny that most cars still require you to put the key in the ignition and turn it to start, then
Well it was only an analogy, and my point was an attempt to illustrate that the gap between a deliberate action (eg, putting the keys into the ignition) and that person actually using that piece of equipment (eg, driving the car) is usually very short. By the same token, if someone decides to plug in a pendrive, it's both reasonable and probable to assume that they actually do intend to start using it in the immediate future, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to stop whatever they were doing to insert it. Along these lines, I think you may be confusing Windows "autorun" with Linux "automount". The former can and usually does result in an application being launched, but in Linux, just mounting a device will only make its contents accessible to the user.
 
Old 07-14-2006, 05:56 AM   #95
evilDagmar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
In this case I would have /mnt/pny128 just for that device. But that's me
I think that can be diddled under HAL, but I've not dug around in the documentation for it that deeply yet (I know fixed mount points are possible, I'm just not 100% sure it's HAL that is where you set this up). Mainly I'm just happy that it seems to pay attention to the serial numbers on the thumbdrives so you can actually name them something useful without having to fiddle with the write-protect tab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
One of the things that bugs me about Windows is the autorun feature - sometimes I'll insert a device and actually not want to use it right away. I also don't always want to do the same thing with the device each time. But again, that's me.
That's actually been disabled in gnome-vfs for because it's likely just as evil a console security problem under Linux as it is under Windows. I never went back to look and see if it was the patch I submitted to them pointing the serious problems with this practice that made them change it from being enabled by default or not, but it's definitely disabled by default now. (Had a bit of a panic just now when I noticed the patch missing from the DLG build.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
Well I'd rather have it disabled by default, and enable it if I want. Like I said before, if I wanted that choice automatically made for me I probably wouldn't have chosen Slackware.
The majority of this stuff are things that the user is 1) probably not going to care about knowing, 2) is going to wind up asking support questions about if it's off, and 3) a pretty reasonable assumption that what is happening is what they expect to happen. Nothing is actually being "hidden" from the users, because that would be a disservice to them. They can still go and do this stuff manually if they like. Most of these GNOME "fancy bits" seem to have originated from something called Project Utopia which frankly, I completely agree with. Certain hardware events should be taken to be a very strong indicator that the user is about to do a specific thing with it, so you might as well go ahead and help them skip the gruntwork where possible.

Think about it. A USB mouse just appeared on the USB bus. The user is probably going to expect to be able to use it for pointing--might as well go ahead and initialize the thing. If an audio CD appears to have just been stuck into the optical drive... the odds are that spawning media player (or ripping application) to do something with it is what they're about to do.

Besides which, progress is good especially when it means avoiding trivial work. I don't notice anyone complaining about kmod loading dependent modules up for people (and I can remember when that did NOT happen), and I certainly don't notice anyone complaining about udev figuring out which modules go with which hardware and loading them up, either. People can still do these things the old way (rc.modules and so forth) if they like, but I for one will not miss one little bit of having to set up alias statements for char-major-14 to get sound working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
WHAT!?!! You don't use Gnome Screensaver? DLG isn't a proper Gnome then! DISBAND THE PROJECT!!!
Shhh! You're probably the only person who's noticed. In any case, JWZ does awesome work and there's way too many people (including me) who would be irked if it were suddenly dumped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
There are obviously perfectly legitimate reasons why people choose DLG for Gnome with Slackware, but I often wonder if the other choices are being drowned out. Now having proponents does speak something for itself, and having a developer actively participating in external forums even more so, but from what I've seen it's very difficult for anyone to discuss alternatives to DLG without the thread ultimately discussing the merits of DLG (and the mildly derisive comments regarding the other choices doesn't sit well with me).
Mildly derisive? Who's doing that? Personally, I like Freerock (the guy and his project), and the only thing I've got against GWare is that their homepage would probably give a psychiatrist plenty to comment on. They appear to spend too much time defining themselves by saying what they're not (in a way that seems like they're doing it to spite others), rather than focusing on what they've accomplished. This just ain't healthy, and it's about as productive as spending all day bashing Microsoft in a Linux-oriented support channel. (So basically, I don't dislike them enough to even think of it as disliking them. I'm pretty neutral, with a side order of raised eyebrow.)

Personally, I would rather like to see both these projects get entirely caught up again, because it's a bit of a waste to have gone to all that trouble and not get things completed. However, I also know it's a huge pile of work (which is why PV dropped GNOME to begin with) and rather often feels like a waste of time because no matter what is done, Slackware seems to have entire camps of users who live to complain.

Last edited by evilDagmar; 07-14-2006 at 05:58 AM.
 
Old 07-14-2006, 06:03 AM   #96
evilDagmar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
Funny that most cars still require you to put the key in the ignition and turn it to start, then
Almost all of them keep the cabin lights on for 15-30s in case you need to fish out a CD or find the knob on the glove compartment, tho. Some cars immediately move the upper retention bracket for the seat belt the moment you sit down, and others wait until the key is in the ignition for it.
 
Old 07-14-2006, 11:55 AM   #97
ciotog
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This may be splitting hairs, but I think the car ignition / usb drive analogy would be better if, say, when you insert the key in the ignition the car would autostart. Now most of the time that's what you want, but what if you just want to roll the automatic windows down? It would have started for nothing. Granted having to umount an auto-mounted device isn't quite as bad as having to turn a car engine off that's been started unnecessarily...

Anyway, I'm willing to concede the point that most users would welcome automounting, and that anyone who doesn't like that behaviour can certainly disable it. When I installed Slackware on a notebook at work recently the speaker on the modem was automatically detected and loaded, and it wasn't too much trouble to disable it (although I think setting up audio would have been somewhat more troublesome for someone new to Linux, as it was there were a couple of times when the music blasted across the room). However, I've always felt that my personal taste should be the primary consideration for every decision everyone makes.

As for the GWare project, they don't seem any more defensive than DLG to me, but they enable auto mounting so I don't like them.

Just kidding
 
Old 07-14-2006, 12:19 PM   #98
evilDagmar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciotog
This may be splitting hairs, but I think the car ignition / usb drive analogy would be better if, say, when you insert the key in the ignition the car would autostart. Now most of the time that's what you want, but what if you just want to roll the automatic windows down? It would have started for nothing. Granted having to umount an auto-mounted device isn't quite as bad as having to turn a car engine off that's been started unnecessarily...

Anyway, I'm willing to concede the point that most users would welcome automounting, and that anyone who doesn't like that behaviour can certainly disable it. When I installed Slackware on a notebook at work recently the speaker on the modem was automatically detected and loaded, and it wasn't too much trouble to disable it (although I think setting up audio would have been somewhat more troublesome for someone new to Linux, as it was there were a couple of times when the music blasted across the room). However, I've always felt that my personal taste should be the primary consideration for every decision everyone makes.

As for the GWare project, they don't seem any more defensive than DLG to me, but they enable auto mounting so I don't like them.

Just kidding
Actually, we can boil the whole thing down further.

Engineers can and will argue to death whether or not the seat-belt should auto-position, the cabin lights fade out, switch off abrubtly, or never turn on at all, or whether or not only the driver's side door should unlock with the key or whether it should automatically unlock both the driver's side door, or whether or not you should be able to unlock both doors by unlocking the trunk with the key (because you're probably going to get in the car next anyway), or whether or not the seats and radio should remember the user's preferences based on a specially coded key, or just the seats, or just the radio, or just the climate control system, and whether or not the headlights should automatically activate when it rains, or only when it's dark, or not at all...

...but vast majority of people just want to get in the car and drive to the video store for a rental and then come back home again in one piece and they don't really give a tinkers damn about any of that other stuff.

 
Old 12-07-2011, 01:04 PM   #99
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilDagmar View Post
When you claimed "Well, you should have posted that as an answer to my question!" I can only assume that in some way you wanted the answer sooner than you actually got it, or before you asked the question, or something. You seem to have decided to take offense for an answer not given, even though it actually was given, and in detail.

So now that we've established that you did get an answer to your question, from me, and yet you're still acting as if you've somehow been put upon. Who here has been condescending and/or rude to you and why is that my problem? The forum exists to help people, but to my knowledge no one is in any way obligated to answer anyone else's question, and it mainly operates on goodwill principles.

You should probably consider exactly how much goodwill you're managing to accumulate by being this accusatory and argumentative.
I am bumping this thread to say what needs to be said: that this was one of the most idiotic examples of hypocrisy I've ever seen here. How much goodwill were you accumulating by being this accusatory and argumentative? Clue: do you think I ever gave your project another chance?

Let me give you some hints here. When you resort to relentless flaming and ad hominems (which is what your accusations of trolling were) in order to shut down a discussion that isn't going your way (which is what you did in this thread), you are not generating goodwill. And when you inspire posts like this, you are not generating goodwill. And this goes for what was then the entire Dropline team as well. When your first resort is to tell the author of one of the best Slackware guides on the Internet (which I was at the time) that he's too stupid to use Slackware (which liquidtenmillion and zborgerd did very early in this thread), you are not generating goodwill. When you label Slackware users who aren't using Dropline as Pat V and his little lemmings, you are not generating goodwill. When you deliberately twist someone's words and label it "the jibber jabber of a troll", you are not generating goodwill.

You, zborgerd and Stik destroyed Dropline's reputation and then left it there to die. I actually feel sorry for Saxa, since he inherited the project and now has to deal with the damage that you did to its community standing.

Last edited by dugan; 12-07-2011 at 04:50 PM.
 
Old 12-07-2011, 03:34 PM   #100
brianL
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evilDagmar's last activity was in May, 08.
 
Old 12-07-2011, 09:13 PM   #101
R3V0LV3R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
evilDagmar's last activity was in May, 08.
And he was responding to a post from 2006.


Now that's holding a serious grudge right there.
 
  


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