Command line...

This is not a question, so much as an idea, but I have no clue where else to suggest it and have it end up in the right ears.

I just read something from a guy who said he kept a list of common shell commands taped to the side of his monitor, since he couldn't remember them and two things occured to me. 1. Most people are using an GUI shell and 2. The linux worlds has missed something that is so blatently obvious I can't comprehend why no one has considered doing it. Well, there are some general reasons, but those are not 'major' ones.

So, here is the concept, a 'right-click'/hot-key command list. While in the shell right-click could bring up a list of common commands. You then pick from that list the one you want. Included 'with' the menu could be a short description of what it does. Flags, etc could them pop up as you type, for it. type + and you get a list of flags that start with +. Using the same hotkey or right-click also gives a list of the one character flags available (and what they do in context of the current command) or even an option to pick a file from a file directory list, if a file name is needed.

Yeah, it would take work to design such a thing, but right now you either tape common commands next to your display, until you remember them, or you have to trudge through Man files, which are sometimes like navigating the mine sweeper clones. Of course this would be an option experts could switch off, but for new people, having the OS give them hints about what commands are available, what the options do, etc. would be a 'major' improvement over the, "Gee, all you have to do is type 'afuhfla dfho -e ifhlfn'", and it is fixed issue, or at least the commands may as well look like that to someone switching to Linux from Windows, or just totally new to computers.

Again, hopefully someone will read this, consider it and maybe pass it on to someone able to design such a GUI shell. I find it very strange that such a simple idea and common thing in many coding GUIs has never really been applied to a command shell.

The trouble would be applying it to practical use. I dont always boot into X, so right clicking wouldnt really help me. Normally I just keep a decent reference book next to my computer. How ever i did see the following program mentioned in a magazine:
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~kinzler/vshnu/
I can see where you are going with the idea and in theory it sounds quite good, its just that to know wot command you need to choose you sort of have to have a knowledge of that command and its application in the first place.
Not a criticism {after all the world is founded on ideas} Just my opinion

We're way ahead of you. Type the first (few) letter(s) of the command you want, press tab. If what you have typed so far is unique, it will complete the command for you. If not, press tab again and it will give you a list of all commands that start with that.

The type --help, eg.
ls --help

Unfortunately some of the older commands still only respond to -h or -?, which is a bit sad.

Or if you want something to do with a keyword X, type...
man -k X

I do not think it is a common problem and linux men have to solve it. If anyone cannot remember commands i think he can type 'apropos blah-blah'. Linux has very good manual system! One friend of mine cannot remember proper commands because he uses WinXP rather then Linux . The more experience the more comfortable work in Linux.
P.S. I use X not often, only when i wanna look at web-site with graphical formatting (or with pictures), or images itself.

Well Cyent.. The 'main' issue I have with that is you need to have some clue what command you are trying to get to in the first place. And that is the same issue I have with Ygrex's comment that most Linux men don't need such a thing. **most** is rapidly becoming everyone looking to buy a computer. If 100% of everything they need to do is accessible using pretty pictures on a Windows box, but even installing new software on most types of Linux requires you speak penguin (as far as they are concerned), then which one do you think they are going to buy? Its nice to know some 'limited' form of what I suggest is available, but Linux is either going to have to GUI everything to the point where the 'average' person using it never needs to even see the command shell *or* the command shell had better start giving people a better idea what commands are available and what they do, without rummaging through MAN files that where written by experts "for" experts and can't compete with even something as relatively lame as Windows Help.

This is the real world. Not everyone knows or wants to know how the internals of the machine work and either Linux permanently kills Microsoft by outdoing them at 'everything' or MS finds lawyers, law markers and an endless supply of gullible morons to help it kill Linux. Maybe that won't happen, but the patent BS in the EU, the funding of loonies like SCO, constant attempts to convince people that Linux is worse and even the nasty potential of some special interest or even a group of congressman believing MS over everyone else (right.. like that would happen), all make for a disturbing and potentially lethal situation. If we, at the same time we fight of that, ignore reality about what the OS 'needs' to truely make a, "everyone wants one", product we will lose anyway, even if we win every other legal and political battle.

What exists is a good start, but its *not enough*.

Originally posted by Kagehi Its nice to know some 'limited' form of what I suggest is available, but Linux is either going to have to GUI everything to the point where the 'average' person using it never needs to even see the command shell *or* the command shell had better start giving people a better idea what commands are available and what they do, without rummaging through MAN files that where written by experts "for" experts and can't compete with even something as relatively lame as Windows Help.

*OR* the user starts to learn *OR* he keeps on using
Mickeysleuth products if brain-dead is what he's after....

This is the real world. Not everyone knows or wants to know how the internals of the machine work and either Linux permanently kills Microsoft by outdoing them at 'everything' or MS finds lawyers, law markers and an endless supply of gullible morons to help it kill Linux. Maybe that won't happen, but the patent BS in the EU, the funding of loonies like SCO, constant attempts to convince people that Linux is worse and even the nasty potential of some special interest or even a group of congressman believing MS over everyone else (right.. like that would happen), all make for a disturbing and potentially lethal situation. If we, at the same time we fight of that, ignore reality about what the OS 'needs' to truely make a, "everyone wants one", product we will lose anyway, even if we win every other legal and political battle. What exists is a good start, but its *not enough*.

In the real world only people who want to give up windows
but don't want to learn see this as a battle-field. There's no
money gained for the vast majority of involved developers
in Linux and Linux-application development.



Cheers,
Tink

Moved: More suitable in General.

Well people who just want to use their computer and aren't interested in how it works can use a tool like YAST on SuSE or a similar tool on other distros (which are aimed at such users) and they should never need to touch the command line.

As for those users who want to learn the command line, they can make a list of their most used commands as Kagehi's friend did and hang it on their computer, the very act of making the list will also help them learn. I agree that newbies reading man pages isn't always a good idea as man pages are mainly best if you already know what the command does but there are many books and tutorials on how to use the command shell that are aimed at beginners.

Cheers
- Jessica

One such tutorial is here:
http://www.linuxsurvival.com/index.p...ceid=1&meid=-1

Kagehi: seeing how it appears you only joined to post that, do you work for m$?

After a lot of search (Google didn't help, this time), I finally found what I was looking for (and hoping I would find it):
LogicalDesktop.
Now, it seems to be replaced by OneFinger by the same author.

While searching, I also found those links, you might be interested in:
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/v/c/vcato/gsh/
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2000/06/07/xmlterm/
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~kinzler/vshnu/
http://kaptain.sourceforge.net/
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=12865

Yves.

Originally posted by SciYro Kagehi: seeing how it appears you only joined to post that, do you work for m$?

Right.. Usual stuff I see. First, everyone claims it isn't needed. Second, people start asking if the original poster is working for MS. Third, someone points out that progress is being made, and I bet will promptly be ignored.

No. I don't work for MS. If I did I wouldn't still be using Win 98se on this machine and have Fedora installed on my other one. If I could figure out why the heck installers never work right under WINE, wasn't stuck with damn winmodems and was reasonably sure I could get everything I can't lose from the Windows machine into WINE, without losing all the settings, I would switch in a moment. But to do that, I need the same thing as I do to 'fix' the current mess I am using. A bigger HD, so I can not only dump the data to a seperate partition, but copy all the stuff from CDs I burned off the 'barely' get enough room to keep Winblose running back the where I can actually use it.

However, even Gimp has recieved a make-over patch to make it actually enough like Photoshop to 'finally' be usable. Too much of Linux is still inconsistent, oddly designed, complicated to deal with, etc. "I" would be temporarilly frustrated by some, but 'eventually succeed'. I wouldn't even bet on my neighbors doing the same. Windows was 'never' a reasonable alternative, 'except' that they made it easy to use, at the expense of it working right. Heck. Someone I know, in the last two days, had XP fry itself so badly they had to completely reinstall it. And its supposed to be 'stable'. lol Linux is stable, unless you really do something stupid. The problem is that its still way to easy for people, even if all they know is the GUI, to do something stupid when they have to do something complicated. I simply thought that it might be nice to have something to help that a bit. The LogicalDesktop thing that theTinYeti linked to seems like a good start. Though.. its probably a good idea to have pre-installs come with common commands already in the editable command list.

But Linux does have problems that too many experts don't think need to be dealt with. Even blatently obvious ones like the glitch in some installations, where instead keeping track of what detections are done, then 'remembering' the last one tried in case of a reboot, then skipping it. Basic logic. Rather than require some poor fool to know which BIOS setting to disable or what step to manually adjust in some startup file, have the OS keep track of when the process was interrupted and either skip it the next time or warn the user when that point is reached, so they at least have the option of seeing if skipping it will work, then later making that step permanently disabled. To mean this makes a lot more sense than 'assuming' every installation with every type of harware will work perfectly or that everyone can fix it. Just as being able to pick from a list of commands, with summeries of what they do, makes sense, if its needed. If not, turn it off.

I never could comprehend why some percentage of Linux users go totally insane the moment you mention a flaw or suggest some way that some part might be fixed. Its foolish and stupid.

I never could comprehend why some percentage of Linux users go totally insane the moment you mention a flaw or suggest some way that some part might be fixed. Its foolish and stupid.

Ever heard of the term "looking a gift horse in the mouth"?

That's what you're doing.

Linux is Free and the people who develop it sure don't get a penny from you to implement all the features that you and I desire. It's as-is. Use at your risk. If you want anything done then learn to use Linux or develop your own features into Linux or even consider donating some money to your favourite project and encourage them to improve the features. In the final analysis nobody cares whether you or I use Linux. We're deluding ourselves thinking that we're part of some mythical "community" which magically gets things done for our needs. Everybody who develops Linux systems applications and programs don't have a magic wand to wave and make it the way you want it. It's years and years of hard work and sweat with little monetary rewards.

Try asking Microsoft for feature improvements in a product for which you pay for and see if they oblige you.

To take things back to the original suggestion, let me make it clear, the facility as describe exists. Even if you don't type anything, just tab tab, here I will copy and paste the result for you....
$
Display all 3508 possibilities? (y or n)
So you can get that.

But 3508 is a bit overwhelming. (Personally I find the facilities available to me under Windows very underwhelming :-)) So "man -k keyword" is useful.

However, when I was a newbie to Linux, (and occasionlly even now years laters), every now and a again I go tab-tab and look at the list.

I pop up a new terminal window and any command that I have not the faintest idea what it would do I say "man strangecommand" and take a very quick read. I don't bother to remember the exact command, or how to use it I merely remember that the facility to do whatever it does exists.

Originally posted by Harishankar Ever heard of the term "looking a gift horse in the mouth"? That's what you're doing. Linux is Free and the people who develop it sure don't get a penny from you to implement all the features that you and I desire.

This is no longer 100% true. There are companies that do make money from it that 'are' trying to make it work better. But damn right I am going to look a gift horse in the mouth when something doesn't work right. Seriously though, not everything in Linux is even close to the level of function and design as say.. POVRay, which is ironic, given how agressively nasty they can get when you suggest trying to add something like adhoc sub-surface scattering methods, when media is 'way....' more complicated, despite being the 'correct' way to do it. It came as a major shock when 3.7 beta 1 came out this week, which is trying to impliment support for dual core and other multiple processor systems. They fought against it for so long it was seriously unexpected.

Anyway.. Its a mute point. Seems, according to cyent, some variation on it already exists. Not sure if it lists hints about what the commands do though, so... But still, I wasn't aware of even that, nor is it something I would have thought of trying.