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firm believer 168 28.77%
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:17 AM   #5206
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
lim∑bo
1. (in some Christian beliefs) the supposed abode of the souls of unbaptized infants, and of the just who died before Christ's coming.
One of the most-interesting books I've seen was called, I think, "Constantine's Triumph." Basically, it talks about the way ... the very Roman way, BTW ... that religion was used to exercise total political control throughout much of the Empire, and where the ability to read [the Bible, as well as other books of that sort ...] was used to put a ring in the nose of the illiterate. It also harnessed the power of one of the most-basic emotions: guilt. (You're not only "guilty" ... you are damned.)

Constantine was the first Emperor to really latch-on to the power of "a state Religion." Yet, paradoxically, the religion that he instituted outlived the Empire by thousands of years. It created an institution so powerful in its influence (at least, in the Western world) that its headquarters is "a nation-state," complete with embassies from many other countries, none of whom dare directly oppose the one man(!) who occupies its topmost office. (If ever there was a human "king of kings," The Pope™ comes very, very close.) While the Catholic organization's influences to the geographic East of Rome are virtually non-existent (a result of the splintering of the Empire in its latter days, as well as the cultural differences of the Oriental lands), it continues to dominate to its west ... across fully half the planet. Furthermore, the influence of its Pope is still imperial.

Of course, other religions are also mega-religions ... Africa and the Far East both have "continental religions" ... but none of these are quite like Rome's. None of these are, so to speak and to this day, nearly so Roman.

If you dare to look at the thing objectively ... if you're not dissuaded by the secret fear that a bolt out of the blue will send you to a fire-pit ... then it's really quite a fascinating, and utterly human, institution.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-04-2014 at 11:18 AM.
 
Old 11-04-2014, 12:10 PM   #5207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
I guess it's just fun to believe you never really die, (hu, creators of) Lucy; no-mater how much "time" we waste?!

And, of course "drugs" are the answer right??? they are we...
I believe DM2525 latest video answers that. The illusion needs to be controlled otherwise everything might fall apart. :P
 
Old 11-04-2014, 03:26 PM   #5208
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Sorry but:

if you were taught religion is education and furthermore... ... ... ...

you might be inclined, blind or even forced (or forcing) to believe it tho facts vs fiction!

Once again read\\\experience every religious\scientific
book&c ever dreamt up to KNOW truth!

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
–Albert Einstein (And, most religious people are just fish... no offence.)

Last edited by jamison20000e; 11-05-2014 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Title:
 
Old 11-05-2014, 06:46 AM   #5209
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ISTM that Constantine's genius lay first in recognising that this new upstart religion was taking hold across the empire, and second in subverting it for his own ends. It takes some kind of genius to take a religion whose founder preached peace to the point where he would accept a humiliating death for the good of others, and twist it so far that it can be used as a convenient excuse for armed conquest; and, come to that, to take a religion that teaches that kings are a bad idea, and use it to support an absolute monarchy. The Romans may not have been the first to use pseudoreligion to control the masses - I gather the ancient Egyptian government, for example, had written the manual long before Constantine started - but there's no denying he was successful.

To look at it another way, if religions were operating systems then Constantine would be the Bill Gates of his day: he took a small, simple system that worked well for those who took the time to learn it, then rebranded it and closed the source so that anyone who wanted to use it would have to pay him. He added numerous nice-looking extensions which were supposed to make things easier for the uneducated masses, though some of them were horribly bloated. He made shady deals with vendors and even put pressure on governments to ensure that other systems were squeezed out. Eventually he had generations of people who'd grown up with only his system, and who would throw stones at anyone who dared to suggest that that One True Way might not be entirely perfect.

Last edited by Pastychomper; 11-05-2014 at 06:48 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2014, 07:50 AM   #5210
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In books such as Mythmaker, or the venerable The Quest for the Historical Jesus, we learn that the actual history was even more fascinating than that. Christianity was the wandering, aimless thing that is described in the early parts of The Acts of The Apostles as well as 1 Peter. It really didn't know what to do with itself, how to relate to the Judaism that surrounded them, whether or not it was okay with God to eat this or that, and so on. It was clearly "already on its way out," destined to wither away just as so many other prophet's-followings had recently done.

(We know that there were several itinerants, each with their own small following, working the area at about the same time. A couple were very militant, such that the Romans executed everybody. Most simply faded away when their leader died or was killed.)

Then, boom! The Empire took an interest, and we now have, front and center, "the world's most unbelievable 'Pharisee' (sic ...)," Paul of Tarsus. Yeah, the guy who claimed Roman citizenship (which he had ...) when the going got tough, and who had the "round reproductive objects" to demand an audience with Caesar.

(We don't even know whether he: (a) made it to Rome after performing a minor miracle, as Acts suggests; or (b) ran afoul of the authorities somehow and was executed, as 2 Timothy suggests. We literally don't know. We have some Roman court records from that period, but none refer to him. One story ends with him still on the boat. The other has him condemned in jail. Did he piss off a sailor? Is this even the same guy? Unknown.)

Paul's letters became ... canon. They became scripture. They were the new Roman scripture, written by a Roman claiming to be Jewish. When Paul writes about "the scriptures are infallible," it's not too likely that he meant that "this letter that I am now writing to you is infallible, inspired by God Himself and so-on," but that's the canonical understanding. It undoubtedly was not his understanding nor intent, but, through a series of mechinations that occurred about a century later, they became the truth. (Another story ...)

So, as I've said before, it's truly fascinating. An executed Jewish rabble-rouser ... ostensibly executed on the demand of his fellow Jews (even though the occupying Romans never did that, which is yet another story) ... becomes "the one successor and therefore end of the Jewish religion" (even though the Jewish 'messiah' was never necessarily 'one man'), and this new religion thus "bootstraps itself" into legitimacy world-wide, to gain strength and power that easily eclipsed everything that the old Empire had ever accomplished. It holds that power today, and probably will do so forever.

"Believe of it what you choose." Approach it, or not. Embrace it or not. But, do understand it. Know where it actually came from, brush off the cobwebs of dogma, and believe it ... with your entire understanding. Otherwise, it will be "a house built upon the beach," and it will fail you. I went through that experience, literally because I didn't know any better, and had never been taught what to think, nor been given anything to think about. I had no information about this thing that had been force-fed me since age two. That's no way to live ... nor, to believe. But if you believe, or not, with your full mind, it's unshakeable. For you.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-05-2014 at 08:00 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2014, 06:24 PM   #5211
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An interesting read is http://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/the_..._mind_partner/

from which one (of many!) worthy quote is -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alternet
Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is a new term, coined by Marlene Winell to name a recognizable set of symptoms experienced as a result of prolonged exposure to a toxic religious environment and/or the trauma of leaving the religion. It is akin to Complex PTSD, which is defined as ‘a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma with lack or loss of control, disempowerment, and in the context of either captivity or entrapment, i.e. the lack of a viable escape route for the victim’.

Though related to other kinds of chronic trauma, religious trauma is uniquely mind-twisting. The logic of the religion is circular and blames the victim for problems; the system demands deference to spiritual authorities no matter what they do; and the larger society may not identify a problem or intervene as in cases of physical or sexual abuse, even though the same symptoms of depression and anxiety and panic attacks can occur.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 12:27 AM   #5212
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Thumbs up

Preaching to the quire poor choice of words.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 08:39 AM   #5213
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Quote:
the system demands deference to spiritual authorities no matter what they do
Sounds like scaremongering to me, even the most "conservative" of churchgoers I've met in the uk would be pretty quick to tell their "authorities" where to get off if they went too far.

On the other hand, if there really are religions that give that much power to individuals it would explain the preponderence of anti-religious sentiment in some parts of the media.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 03:04 PM   #5214
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What's scary is not a fable of apocalypse but how it may come to be. Thirty-fiveish years young to become "president," eighteen to kill for "them!?"
http://www.academic.marist.edu/mwwat...5/science1.htm

Last edited by jamison20000e; 11-06-2014 at 03:16 PM.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 11:32 PM   #5215
enorbet
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Hello Pastychomper - I wish it were merely scaremongering but unfortunately it is not. While adults are more likely to be entrenched in individualism and critical thought, apparently like yourself and those of whom you speak, but this is relatively new (began in earnest after WW2) and focuses on very young children and is only now coming intop fruition. The degree certainly varies from group to group but the fundamental concepts of indoctrination at an early age, focused peer pressure (starts as "love bombing" - the carrot- but graduates to castigation and manipulation - the whip - before very long) and all the rest in that article are very real, if a bit under the surface.

Here are some examples -

Warrior for Christ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDE6GJwMOyo - and - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

This is by no means limited to Christianity or to the USA. Check this out. It's Global. -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Life

Here is an interesting quote from that wiki

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Criticism and controversy

In November 2007, Jeff McSwain, the Area Director of Durham and Chapel Hill, along with others, was fired after taking issue with the organization's "sin talks." McSwain's theology emphasizes that "God has a covenant, marriage-like relationship with the world he has created, not a contract relationship that demands obedience prior to acceptance [as in that of Young Life]."[5] Tony Jones describes Young Lifeís Statement of "non-negotiatables" as telling staffers that "they must not introduce the concept of Jesus and his grace until the students have been sufficiently convinced of their own depravity and been allowed to stew in that depravity".[6] Eight members of Young Life's teaching staff based in Durham, North Carolina resigned their positions after these "non-negotiables" were announced.[7]
So you see you are right in that some will leave when they are exposed to the inner circle's real purpose, beliefs, and methodology, but not enough for it to be stopped. Instead it is growing and has been growing for over one half a century. There is a chapter near where I live and it is extremely popular and respected, largely because the majority are not in the inner circle and only see the sweeter, "smiley face" side of it and they have all the right buzzwords like "family values", "decent and moral" and they do in fact do good works in public. So the surface that everyone, or nearly everyone, sees is beneficent, helpful, and productive. There is no hard line between "Cult" and any other organization based on Faith. Conformity, enforced conformity, is the goal. They see that as a good thing.... making the world over in their vision of what good is. It is doubtful that they realize they are destroying important pieces of the human puzzle, perhaps THE most important puzzle, the human mind and whatever is left of free will and independence in any society.
 
Old 11-07-2014, 01:59 PM   #5216
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Hand in hand we'll get somewhere...

back in the day religious people (too did lock for profit and power also) more than likely cursed science and progress for paper? For it could bring about devilish words\images and it does, now the internet. Look out righteousness! ...perhaps the devils don't come from religion but animal nature; Amish people will kill\uck you, Christians, Buddhists, Scientist and Educators too but why all the drama? Why now 2014? It's not perpetual motion it's evolving and we are too. K1 is the devil!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 11-07-2014 at 02:17 PM.
 
Old 11-08-2014, 10:59 AM   #5217
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Here is a good read: Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and thatís not a joke - http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982
 
Old 11-14-2014, 03:04 PM   #5218
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Lightbulb Dilutional.

Here's another funny thought at least to me... as kids we grow to stop believing in santa, the easter bunny, thanksgiving not being an atrocity to Native Americans and so on but many cho\o\se or blindly follow what they or we want?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Simplicity.
 
Old 11-17-2014, 09:39 AM   #5219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Here's another funny thought at least to me... as kids we grow to stop believing in santa, the easter bunny, thanksgiving not being an atrocity to Native Americans and so on but many cho\o\se or blindly follow what they or we want?
I dunno but it looks like either there is hidden agenda(related video) behind it or information is also subject to business market.

Last edited by Arcane; 11-17-2014 at 09:39 AM. Reason: quotefix
 
Old 11-18-2014, 02:30 PM   #5220
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Wow! Arcane I am truly impressed. That is perhaps the first video link you have posted that smacks of real logic and had me howling in laughter on the floor while doing it. "The Mind's Arse" just bowled me over XD. Frankly since you have referred to so-called "Ancient Knowledge" and "Sacred" items, I really didn't at all expect this from you and it is a most welcome evolution.... that is, unless you actually buy into that Jordan charlatan. To be honest, I rather thought from past posts he was more "up your alley".
 
  


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