Breaking Into Programming

simsjr · 06-05-2004, 09:14 PM

Hey Folks,

I'm itching to learn how to program, maybe even make a career out of it eventually (without a computer science degree, I'm not sure how possible a career is). Careers aside, however, I think programming can become a fun hobby that will help keep my mind sharp too.

Anyways, I'm looking into C, C++, and Java. It seems there are certain advantages and disadvantages to each, but I'd like to learn a language that is, perhaps, more marketable and widely used of the three. That's probably very subjective, but I'm hoping for some feedback.

I was thinking it might actually be better if I learn the fundamentals of each language in the order of C, C++, then Java. Maybe that approach would help me decide which language I should stick to.

Also, what common types of programs should an intermediate programmer be able to produce?

Any recommended books for people in my situation? Are there standard development methodologies I should understand before I start?

Thanks for any help!

The_Nerd · 06-05-2004, 09:56 PM

I seggest C++. However, I don't know Java, so I can't recomend it. As for books try these:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

The two best books ever! The internet is also a good source to find stuff out, just google it!

If you still need help (with C/C++), or would just like it explained in person, please feel free to e-mail me anytime (The_Nerd@linuxmail.org). I would be happy to help you out! Have fun and goodluck!

As for starter programs:

File converters,
Simple text based apps,
rrrrrrr windows just sticked me>>>>

anyway you get the idea> cya

simsjr · 06-06-2004, 01:11 AM

Hey, thanks. I really appreciate that. You may just get some emails from me in the near future!

The_Nerd · 06-06-2004, 11:57 AM

Cool.

eric.r.turner · 06-06-2004, 12:49 PM

I know both C++ and Java quite well. The choice between the two isn't easy since each has advantages and disadvantages. To give you the best career chances, I would suggest that you learn both. It isn't as difficult as it sounds.

Start with C++. The two books you should have are C++ How to Program , and The C++ Programming Language. The first is great for beginners that do not know any programming. The second is the ultimate C++ reference, which should be a part of any serious C++ programmer's library.

For Java, I would recommend Core Java 2, Volume I: Fundamentals and Core Java 2, Volume II: Advanced Features.

If you decide to learn C++ I wouldn't waste my time on C, unless you have a compelling reason (e.g. you want to get into embedded software development, in which case you'll also need to learn a lot about computer architecture, and might as well go back to school and get a CS or EE degree!)

If you want a comparison of C++ and Java let me know and I could throw something together for you.

amos · 06-06-2004, 01:26 PM

Check out "Thinking in C++" by Bruce Eckel

Google for it, or its abbreviation TICPP. Its available as a free download, so its well worth the price. (I think there might be some Java books available on his website too.)

Cheers
Amos

The_Nerd · 06-06-2004, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eric.r.turner
If you decide to learn C++ I wouldn't waste my time on C, unless you have a compelling reason (e.g. you want to get into embedded software development, in which case you'll also need to learn a lot about computer architecture, and might as well go back to school and get a CS or EE degree!)

What the heck are you talking about??? C++ IS C upgraded! Thats why its called C++, meaning the next version, or C incremented by one. C++ is simply a better C.

Galik · 06-06-2004, 03:11 PM

Personally if your just learning I would begin with C. The reason is that both C++ and Java contain quite a bit of C. I recommend C before C++ simply because C is largly a subset of C++ and it would be beneficial to know the differences. It would be much harder to remember the dividing line between C and C++ if you leaned C++ first and then C I think. Also you would not be wasting learning time because C contains all the basics of C++ that you would need to know anyway. After C I recommend C++ before Java. Once you know C++ then moving to Java will be much easier. I suspect you'd get more headaches going from Java to C++. There is no reason why you shouldn't aim to be able use all three languages, they do share many common themes.

shrike_912 · 06-06-2004, 05:08 PM

learn C you have learned structured programming methodology.
learn C++ you have learned object oriented programming methodology.
when u have learnt both, JAVA would seem too easy to learn..

hope u get it,
shrike_912

dave_starsky · 06-06-2004, 05:15 PM

I think if you learn C first, then move on to either C++ or Java. Once you've learned one of Java and C++ I would imagine learning the other would be pretty easy (compared to learning from scratch anyway).

eric.r.turner · 06-06-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Nerd
What the heck are you talking about??? C++ IS C upgraded! Thats why its called C++, meaning the next version, or C incremented by one. C++ is simply a better C.

Though they are very close, C++ is not purely a better C. Stroustrup identifies some of the differences in Appendix B. For example:

Code:

int x[99];
void f()
{
   struct x { int a; };
   sizeof(x);
}

This code actually behaves differently in C and C++! In C you get the size of the array, but in C++ you get the size of the structure.

More importantly, there are idioms that a good C programmer typically uses that a good C++ programmer does not, even though it is legal in C++. String handling is a good example. A C programmer uses null-terminated arrays of characters and the stdio library functions (and sometimes even directly manipulates the arrays and uses pointer arithmetic) whereas a good C++ programmer uses the string class and streams. Memory management is also done differently in the two languages.

The differences are not difficult to learn, but the C++ programmer wanting to program in C will need to learn the way things are done in C (strings, libraries, memory management, etc.) Of course, you lose the OO paradigm in C, so that takes a different way of thinking about program design. Is it worth spending the time to learn these differences if you have no compelling reason to?

Of course, the learning curve for a C programmer wishing to learn C++ is tremendous: classes, templates, streams, additional keywords, namespaces, casting, libraries, etc.

simsjr · 06-07-2004, 05:00 AM

Hey everyone, thanks for all your input! This has been really great for me. I think I will learn the basic concepts of C++ and then learn everything else in Java (rumor has it that Java could be open sourced in the near future).

Oh, is there such a thing as C++ or Java certification? I don't have time to go back to school, sadly, but I'm thinking that maybe if I get certified and pass an exam, that might help me.

Thoughts?

eric.r.turner · 06-07-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by simsjr
Oh, is there such a thing as C++ or Java certification? I don't have time to go back to school, sadly, but I'm thinking that maybe if I get certified and pass an exam, that might help me.

Thoughts?

For Java, check out http://suned.sun.com/US/certification/java/index.html . I'm not sure about a C++ certification. Most employers will look at certification as a good thing, though it is no substitute for experience. At the very least, earning a certification can be very educational. I learned a lot becoming a Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform.

nimra · 06-07-2004, 09:54 AM

It depends what you like to program.

If I need a visual program I normally program in Java. Java has the advantage being portable over the different os (at least, should be). When something must be fast and a visual interface is not required, I take C/C++.
Visual programming in C++ depends strongly on the os!
The reason for this is, that the java compiler creates a bitcode, which is close to machine language (but os independent). Executing a Java bitcode, means that the bitcode is interpreted by a Java Virtual Machine.

For a beginner Java might be easier because Java don't allow you to program dubious code (ex: pointers).

kooch · 06-07-2004, 01:16 PM

nimra...

s/bitcode/bytecode/

Java might be 'easier' in terms of not breaking things but its library is too big to fit in your head. That's why I recommend C. It's compact, small and you learn a lot from all the things you blow up.

Steps to successful programming
1 read a lot of code
2 write a lot of code.
3 GOTO 1