LinuxQuestions.org
Visit Jeremy's Blog.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions > Mandriva
User Name
Password
Mandriva This Forum is for the discussion of Mandriva (Mandrake) Linux.

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 08-21-2003, 10:40 PM   #1
norikage
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
Posts: 19

Rep: Reputation: 0
rpms vs debs ?


I was wondering for some time why mandrake linux uses rpm packages. I know that mandrake comes from red hat, but isn't it possible to modify mandrake to use .deb instead of rpms ? I know it's a lot of work but the distro would be a lot better i think. I have never used the debs but from what i read, it's a lot easier to install and better when it comes to distro upgrages. Just yesterday, I was trying to install something better than libqt3-3.1.1-13 to make vnc work. After a lot of search, i finally found 3.2 but installing them seemed to be impossible since 2 packages were needing each other. Often with the rpms, you install one, but you need two other packages which are not on the cds. After searching the net, these also need other packages. Its frustrating to try for hours just to install one program. Since I don't know deb, i can't say for sure if they are a lot better but i guess you will be able to correct me if I'm totally wrong. If deb are really better, I'm sure many user will be pleased to use these.

Norikage
 
Old 08-21-2003, 10:47 PM   #2
leonscape
Senior Member
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Distribution: Debian SID / KDE 3.5
Posts: 2,313

Rep: Reputation: 47
I dumped RedHat for exactly that reason (as well as having too upgrade to diffrent versions).

I love apt-get makes like so much easier.

apt-get install kde

Thats all it took, took to install a complete KDE gui with most of the programs.

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

Is all I have to do to keep all my stuff current and up to date.

There trying to do something similar for rpms, but its the total number of packages that makes Debians work (11000)
 
Old 08-22-2003, 05:51 AM   #3
DrBadEvil
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 1

Rep: Reputation: 0
URPMI - a solution to RPM search problem

I do not know much about DEB package format, but procedure of looking for needed RPMs can be made automatic using urpmi / urpmq

e.g.
"urpmi --auto-select" - install the newest packages
"uprmi kopete" - installs the newset version of kopete

The only think is to maintain the list of package repositories. But mandrakeclub site provides the list of them.

urpmi can be used in a graphical way as well, the program is then called rpmdrake

Good luck with using Mandrake
 
Old 08-22-2003, 07:20 AM   #4
norikage
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
Posts: 19

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
i know rpmdrake finds some packages for us, but when the dependencies needed oare not on the cd (maybe somewhere else too) the install fail. libqt3-3.2 is not in the live update. The version there is libqt3-3.1.1-13 (just as an example).
 
Old 08-22-2003, 08:34 AM   #5
GaelDuval_MDK
Mandrake Linux Founder
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Internet.
Distribution: Mandrake Linux
Posts: 2

Rep: Reputation: 0
Hi - urpmi/urpme is designed to offer the features provided by apt-get: it solves dependencies automatically and can perform updates remotely (ftp, http...).

Anyway, if you feel that there is a room for improvement for urpmi, you might be interested in joining Cooker, the open development plateform for Mandrake and make suggestion (or send patches) to urpmi developpers.

http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/cookerdevel.php3
 
Old 08-22-2003, 08:39 AM   #6
norikage
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
Posts: 19

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
everyone can join the cooker ? I don't think I have the programming skills to do anything good enough for mandrake linux. And i thought that the cooker was for those who want to develop something on mandrakelinux.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 08:47 AM   #7
GaelDuval_MDK
Mandrake Linux Founder
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Internet.
Distribution: Mandrake Linux
Posts: 2

Rep: Reputation: 0
Yes everyone. And submitting ideas is part of a development process :-) (that doesn't mean all ideas are kept, of course)
 
Old 08-22-2003, 12:43 PM   #8
dunkin690
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Distribution: SuSE 8.2, Redhat 9.0, Xandros, Lycoris, & Mandrake 9.0
Posts: 1

Rep: Reputation: 0
I personally like rpms over deb packages. Yet, there is a major problem with most rpms and that is lack of needed dependencies. This is a real issue for any distros and more so with new newbies coming from the MS side. Who ever writes/codes for Linux and compiled in an rpm format should also include all of the dependencies for that rpm - no accept ions! We can install ANY shareware, utilities, drivers, or applications onto a Mac or Win with one single click and no need to find a missing dll, exe, or olb to make the installation work, rpms for Linux should do the SAME!!

Programmers, who write their code in rpms SHOULD and MUST do so with COMPLETE packages if they ever want newbies remain with Linux, also have MS users make the switch to Linux. Its just unacceptable and no reason what-so-ever not to have all dependencies in the rpms. If all Linux end user don't purchase Linux Format, Linux World, or any Linux item, don't down load any rpms will force those who program for Linux to include all of the dependencies for that rpm.

That being said, I still think rpms is much better then deb format but only for those who have been a Long time Linux user, not for newbies.

Louis
 
Old 08-22-2003, 01:54 PM   #9
norikage
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
Posts: 19

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
I think that rpms do not include lal of the dependencies for smaller files. I think that it's correct not to include the dependencies in the rpm as long as all them can be reached automatically via cd or web. But for the web sometime sites go down or change host and could result in error while looking for rpms. A rpm containing only the main program is better for those with low connection if they already have a couple or all the dependencies and I think that it was for that reason that usually they don't have all of them. A prm with all dependencies could be very huge because some dependencies have other dependencies needed. I guess that for those with high bandwidth connection like me, some hundreds of megs is not a problem to download.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 02:05 PM   #10
norikage
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake 9.1
Posts: 19

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
sorry just noticed some thing in a previous post. I read way too quikly the first time and didn't pay attention.

" e.g.
"urpmi --auto-select" - install the newest packages
"uprmi kopete" - installs the newset version of kopete
"

where does that command search on the net ? and how to know the real name of a program ? Some name are weird in linux.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 08:07 PM   #11
kageegraphics
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: Mandrake9.1
Posts: 3

Rep: Reputation: 0
Cool "complete RPMs" needed

I agree with norikage that it would be a good idea for code writers/programmers to include dependencies with the RPMs. However, there should be some limitations coded in as well, so that only NEEDED dependencies be included (those which may be relatively new or unique to the RPM).
I have been a Mandrake fan for a couple of years now, having upgraded along the way to my 9.1 version at present. I started out as a Windows user and first tried RedHat 7.0 which I didn't like at all, tried SOT Linux and a couple of others. So far Mandrake would be my distro of choice, in spite of the occasional "dependency hell".
I find most of the RPMs I need quite readily at rpmfind.net, and for the most part they work quite well. However there are times when missing dependencies cause me some real grief, especially when the files I need are so small that I've said "Why can't they be included with damn package?!" In one case it took me over a half hour to find a small dependency that I needed. Very frustrating.
On the bright side though, I have all but dumped Windows - only keep it because my scanner is not compatible, and I need a couple of graphic design tools that are not yet available for Linux.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 08:17 PM   #12
leonscape
Senior Member
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Distribution: Debian SID / KDE 3.5
Posts: 2,313

Rep: Reputation: 47
Which is exactly why I prefer debs, that never happens.

Everthing is packaged. so I install k3b for KDE, and all its associated to programs cdrecord cdrado etc.. are also installed.

It even gives you recommendations for other packages you may find useful. (These aren't dependancies, sometimes their gui's for console programs, that kind of thing.)

Also if you try and remove something that another program depends on, it lets you know, and asks do you want to remove that as well (Because it won't work). or change your mind.

Nothing breaks then, and you not left scanning the internet, for some damn lib you've never heard of, or that the only rpm seems to be for another distro.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 11:09 PM   #13
ikkebra
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 1

Rep: Reputation: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by dunkin690
I personally like rpms over deb packages. Yet, there is a major problem with most rpms and that is lack of needed dependencies.
lol

errr, does that make sense?

THAT is why I prefer debs over rpms.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 11:21 PM   #14
kundor
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2003
Distribution: GoboLinux
Posts: 167

Rep: Reputation: 30
If you follow the directions at http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon, it adds a lot of servers to urpmi, so that it can find most anything it needs. Then "urpmi kde" will get kde, its dependencies, whatever. Most anything is included, once you add contrib, plf, and texstar. Macromedia has an urpmi server for flash as well.

And it does get all the dependencies; it's just as good as apt, and easier to use.

And if you don't know the exact name, "urpmi -y name" does a fuzzy search -- it finds partial matches and words in the descriptions and returns a list for you. Urpmi is an amazing tool, once you've added plf and texstar and learn to use it.

Last edited by kundor; 08-22-2003 at 11:41 PM.
 
Old 08-22-2003, 11:55 PM   #15
contrasutra
Guru
 
Registered: Mar 2003
Location: New Jersey
Distribution: Arch Linux
Posts: 1,445

Rep: Reputation: 46
There is a lot of confusion here. The package format is IRRELEVANT!

All packages are, are a bunch of compressed binaries and an install script.

What makes things different are their UTILITIES. .DEB isnt any better than RPM, but APT-GET and DPKG and great tools that make the whole system work.

As proof, there is APT4RPM that allows you to do the same thing apt4DEB does.

And of course there is URPMI, which is a very similar system.



And for people "including all the dependancies", thats ridiculous. Very often a 3MB program can require 60MB of dependancies (all X programs need 10MB XFree86).

The great thing about linux is that there are many shared libraries. Id rather have a library installed once on my system, then for every program. I care about hard disk space.


And for "getting Windows users to switch", if they are not willing to do a little work, they really aren't any help to the community. Of course we will help them, but we arent trying to please everyone here.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When kde 3.4 debs will be avaible(2 days leftuntil launch)? zvonSully Debian 2 03-13-2005 05:17 AM
debs downloading unsigned, verify error Likosin Debian 2 04-03-2004 12:02 PM
rpms, debs, none of em work archlyric Linspire/Freespire 3 03-28-2004 04:30 AM
installing anjuta, depenency hell, rpms, debs on slack? flipper333 Slackware 11 01-13-2004 04:51 PM
limits using debs without an internet connection? softgun Debian 7 07-09-2003 01:41 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:57 AM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration