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Thinking it over, I think that the Tutorials section could be reasonably closed down and moved over to the Wiki. The Tutorials all have a life expectancy - doing something one way in Slackware 9 is no longer relevant in newer versions and we are pretty dependent on the creator of the tutorial to realise this and to add in the changes. As we can see, this doesn't always happen - whether because they move on, change distros or just forget about it. Putting it in the wiki would make it far more dynamic and easy to maintain - a simple line to say it's no longer required since X.X version rather than a rewrite.
If the Wiki has a how-to section, they could all be reasonably shifted over - we would need some kind souls to go through and create links in the Tutorials and in the body of the wiki, but that's what happens anyway (as far as I can tell).
I am very pleased and happy about the good job you are doing. Thanks for the goodwill message you sent to me. I am also a newbie but i think that some time to come i will become an expert.
My suggestion is that the site can have a "linux google" that when you log on, you can be "linux googling" and can only post threads when you don't get a solution. This will somehow reduce the occurence of the same questions being asked several times. This calls for the production of a "linux solution package" where everything from A to Z of linux will be on the site for anyone to search for solutions to his problem. I know that this will take time to produce but as open source people we always set the pace.
Then stay there if you don't have anything constructive to say. You say that LQ Linux forums are arrogant. Maybe some participants are but not all. We do try to help others as much as we can. Your disdain for this site seems to overshadow any constructive criticism.
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
I'll give you a little background. I have been using linux consistently for about 2 years. The learning curve is starting to shoot stright up, and I often go to ubuntu chat and help many people solve problems with things that I have never done, and sometimes never even heard of. That is because things are clicking. I am starting to understand how it works. I don't know how to explain it, but that it's kind of intuitive. Anyways I have taught people to do things many times, and I have a special kind of understanding of how people learn.
Apparently you don't look in the mirror enough.
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
Even though multitudes of linux people say they are so ready to help, truth is that is BS. Linux users have an air of arrogance to them. They think that they are bug stuff, and they will help you to a point, but that at a certain point you are cutt off. Many linux users are like people who are walking around with a shovel handle shoved up their backside, and they act like no-one knows it. Like their so innocent and so friendly and so community minded. LOL And that is the way linuxquestions.org is. I know, because I experienced it for myself. That is why I went to linuxbasics.org. Because their website is designed for the newbie.
Each to his own. Not every shoe fits everyone. That's why we have different style and sizes. The same with web sites, forums or whatever, some things just are not comfortable to some. Apparently your experience(s) here at LQ caused some undue harm or bias towards us here on LQ. Arrogance is rather broad brush stroke to paint everyone as. Superiority over there at 'linuxbasics.org'? I think some arrogance must be rubbing of somewhere!
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
First of all, every time I searched for something, it came back with something like no match for first term or you must have more of to add for the second term, or some kind of stupid thing like that. It wouldn't even come close to what I was searching for. You guys need to pull your heads out and learn how a USER FRIENDLY search engine should work for a NEWBIE. Try a google clone or something.
Maybe your keywords or search keys were not properly input?
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
Second of all, I noticed someone mentioned organizing tutorials. Do you know what a pain in the butt it is to go through a list of about 1 or 2 or 3 hundred links to look for the tutorial that you need, and then to find out it's not even there??? COMMON!!! That's why they invented grep. If grep is such a powerful tool for linux users, then why the hell do linux user send newbies to a tutorial list that will take them an hour to read through, just to find out that what they need is not there? You guys really need to pull your heads out, because they are way up there!!!! A tutorial list must be organized in categories. Newbies need a Extra Big Bold Fancy font that say something for example: Web development, or cron, or terminal, or Scripting. And I hate to break it to you, but newbies need data redundancy. If something is listed in web development, but it also applies to scripting and/or cron, then you also need a link in cron and/or scripting
Your statement is mixing and confusing to everyone. Your not even logical but you are insulting.
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
Thirdly Your website is horrendous in terms of friendliness. You need to modernize your page. It has to have categories displayed in big bold letters. Instead, its all in font size 12. As soon as a newbie sees that, they will run away. Categories my friends you need to think in categories. Big Bold and Graphic. I realize that you love your little text world, but you need menus with buttons. Even though Linux is a text based OS (as all are really) the new kids on the block still all want GRAPHICS. You can Phewie my comments, but I can guarantee that there will be a price to pay. I know from personal experience that I came here only briefly, and just turned away, because its just too hard to navigate your pages. You need to use graphics to fascilitate the users navigation. Graphics and Categories with subcategories and buttons.
Bells and whistles are not always the best to present material that will be informative, be it on a web site or a powerpoint presentation. You need to present information in manner that addresses the audience. Not everyone in the world can afford the bandwidth to show flash or whatever. Text is still a powerful transfer of pure information.
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
Fourthly, there is one way that you can make a major improvement to linuxbasics.org. They have a linux course. It is a little e-book that I'm sure that many of you have seen. I'm not talking about the RUTE book. It's the basic beginner book. They call it a beginner book, but it is very cryptic in some places, and many of the things that are used for examples in it only make sense to a sys admin. If you were to take that book as a project, and have people go over it (by people, I mean the linuxquestion.org community in general) along with senior members, then we could build it into a major big text book, where people could get answers. for instance if someone wanted to find out a script on how to download and capture streaming music in a file, people could add those things to the book. In the scripting section, it could have menus with buttons with examples of scripts that people used to capture streaming audio into a file. The buttons could have categories like web development, or sys admin, or encryption, or anything you can think of with subcategories. Then as newbies read the manual, they could report on what seemed cryptic or hard to understand, and the more advanced members could take turns typing out a more clear and basic description of what is happening, and upon approval, it could be added to the chapter section, and make it more easily to understand. Furthermore, when newbies ask questions, they could often be referred to the pertaining section to give them a framework to stand on, before they get their question answered, and if they have a problem understanding what it is saying, then the group can learn more about how it can be explained better to newbies, and add it to the section.
This could be done with both the beginner book, and the RUTE book, since they are both (I believe) under creative commons licenses. You just keep the simple beginner easy "desktop user" stuff to the beginner book, and add to it in more layman understandable terms, and You put the more cryptic, and/or technical stuff in the Root Book.
Now we're talking! You presume now a 'we' as you are being part of the problem here at 'LQ'. The compilation of a book is a good idea. But mixing a book and a knowledge base can be task that would be a very large endeavor. Possible but would be an ongoing and ever evolving project. I think to pass pablum or spoon feeding at the start is justified but sometime you must bite from the apple to get nourishment. Sure the TechSpeak, techno jargon can be confusing but we do have means to define via the web. To segregate the information would not really fully help all. So a few people who are too lazy to look up or find answers should be handled with kid gloves so as not to offend. We should all then provide every newbie all the accords to fulfill their desire to get their GNU/Linux Fix without some effort on the Newbie's part. I think some of that is true but in order to learn something one should perform an action too see the result of their action instead of following a cookbook. That way there is a learning expereince not a repetitive action.
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Originally Posted by PaulSaenz
Finally, you asked for it, and there it is, you got it. My opinion. It may seem to be a scathing opinion at times, but I only give it to you thusly for the hope that some of it might get through you linux user arrogant skulls. For you may be too deep into the recesses for the sun to shine. All joking aside, I hope you guy are succesful in your endeavor, and if you can get it right, then I would like to help. (otherwise, I really am not inspired to bang my head against a rock)
good luck
Too close! Arrogant? There's that mirror thing again.
I don't take anything you said as a joke. But arrogance on your part and that you do have a perception problem. Be it here on LQ or even LinuxBasics. The format at LinuxBasics is vanilla as it should be for a world wide site. Another parallel that LQ leads with and some try too emulate.
Your blessing are noted but I don't place too much worth on them. If you find my statement insulting then so be it. Yours are not exactly sweet nor constructive!
I posted a question a few months ago concerning a problem I was having with GRUB and my ASUS mobo. I never did receive a solution - just a collection of stuff I'd already tried (that didn't work). Eventually, I just gave up trying to find an answer. But, don't feel lonely -- I've searched the internet for solutions to this problem without success. Perhaps I'm missing the boat somewhere, but, is there a way for the original poster to annotate that the problem still exists, regardless of the number of replies? Twenty-five or so replies does not signify that there is an answer among them - it may just mean that more folks are having the same problem (with the resulting "ME TOO" posts).
hi all members of the community.i will like to pick up a lot of geeks as y friends especially programming geeks.okay i have a lot of questions. first what is the best language to start with as a beginner? i will like to have one programming geek as a personal friend.my name is Michael Simpson.we could start an alliance together.
One item on other forums that I participate in that I find very useful: New Posts Since Last Visit
This is usually a link near the top of the forum index page that when clicked presents me with a chronological list of the threads (new threads and existing thread replies) have had action since my last logged in visit. Now I bet that this might be a bit intensive on the database having to store my last login, but maybe it does that already and all that is needed is the link code and bit of search code.
One item on other forums that I participate in that I find very useful: New Posts Since Last Visit
This is usually a link near the top of the forum index page that when clicked presents me with a chronological list of the threads (new threads and existing thread replies) have had action since my last logged in visit. Now I bet that this might be a bit intensive on the database having to store my last login, but maybe it does that already and all that is needed is the link code and bit of search code.
Thanks
eg
Nevermind that request, I found that functionality in the second Main Menu bar at the right of the screen. I suppose I am just used to it being a link at the top of the forum index page.
Distribution: Linux Mint6, Debian 5.0 XFCE, Mandriva 2009,
Posts: 24
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I have to agree
I consider myself one of the "very newbies". I have been on most all of the Linux forums, and speaking just for myself, I find that many times newbies are treated with somewhat of a dismissive manner. Mind you, there are many very kind people on the forums that are more than willing to help if they can, but many time the people that have a firm grasp on the use of Linux, and the terminal, give answers that only another experienced person would understand. Newbie means newbie, and most often we didn't even understand Windows, or how it works, yet we are expected to understand lingo form people much smarter (at least in the workings of Linux) than we are, and "go away", or at least that's the impression I have gotten many times. Many times I feel stupid, if I didn't understand the answer I was given. This isn't the norm for all question asked keep in mind, but many time I have felt like "what's the use, I may as well go back to windows and muddle through all the waiting , and crashes". I too want to know more about Linux, but there are so many things that I feel are not taken in to consideration by some of the members when answering question. For instance, the age of the person asking, the education level,
the ability to understand the jargon. Many times I feel as if I am supposed to magically know what someone is telling me about that command line, or compiling something or other. I don't even know how to get in to a directory through a terminal! There is so much to learn. By the way, I am 62. My computer knowledge is only slightly more then marginal. I really appreciate help when it understandable, but I hate being made to feel as if I am a bother, or just plain stupid. Just my two cents worth.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,600
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Originally Posted by billymayday
On the newbie front, my suggestion would be to send a detailed sign-up letter explaining what's on the site, what's expected (ie not HELP ITS URGENT topics), how to get around, etc., etc..
This would need to be a "marketing document" as opposed to a very plain text document, simply to make sure it gets their attention and is read. I haven't seen the sign-up email recently, but the one I do have is drier than the Sahara.
As I see it, newbies are the people who need the most help, and probably should be LQ's lifeblood, but have a habit of shooting themselves in the feet because they have no idea how to post. They don't get help (or get flamed), and hence don't return.
My 2c Jeremy
BM
You actually now get an email like this after you confirm your account. Additionally, you get a FAQ and a list of helpful link above the top nav until you have made a post.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,600
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Originally Posted by billymayday
I made this post separate because I thought the post above deserved it's own space.
Two more suggestions:
1) I'd like to see the 10 letter response minimum removed, perhaps for senior members and above? I quite often have a genuine response that would be either yes or no, but end up padding it out. This seems to be quite common with a series of periods, but is annoying in any case.
2) I'd also like to reopen debate on search lengths. I tried to do a search for Fedora 10 the other day, but of course can't use 10 (let alone 9), and ended up getting loads of rubbish about FC5, etc. I also can't search for dual boot XP, dd, or many other 2 letter acronyms.
Makes my wonder - is there space or the ability to have a "recent popular searches" spot, if for no other reason than to remind members that there is a search function (and some people use it).
That's my 3rd c.
BM
1) The minimum was 8; I've lowered it to 3.
2) "Fedora 10" or FC10 would both work. That being said one of the improvements on the TODO for early this year is completely ripping out the stock FULLTEXT search and replacing it with something much better (and based on an Open Source product to boot).
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguiniator
This raises a flag. If senior members don't know about it, how are new members supposed to? The best thing to do as a start would be to re-organize the front page to make it very clear where everything is. Perhaps include a short step-by-step on using the site to find answers to their questions, which have probably been answered countless times already... unless, of course, this has already been done and I am just not seeing it. :^}
To be fair, there is a "Tutorials" link displayed in the top nav on every page of the site. It's also mentioned in the sitemap. That being said, I'm certainly open to ideas on how to better promote the non-forum sections of LQ, many of which are currently under-utilized IMHO.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,600
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Originally Posted by mr incredible
Maybe a new organization for the tutorials? I think Multimedia, GUI and applications should be separated. Also some new tutorials. I would suspect that there are a lot of people who would be willing to switch to linux rather than upgrade their hardware if they could do what Vista lets them. For example a nas box, xbox 360 media server, tivo, and usable desktop OS all in one, or at least 3 of the 4. I realize that no distro does all of this out of the box, but a simple tutorial on how to say.. install mythtv, ushare in a way that would allow full usability. Just some thoughts.
We plan to completely revamp the section when we move to Drupal 6, but I'd be happy to do some reorganization/reclassification now if the consensus is that it would help.
I too want to know more about Linux, but there are so many things that I feel are not taken in to consideration by some of the members when answering question. For instance, the age of the person asking, the education level,
the ability to understand the jargon.
Ron
I agree in some cases but some of the blame can be put on the newbie for not admitting he does not understand what he is being ask to do.
I have seen the newbie asked to post the output of a command. The newbie will then come back with three or more posts of other solutions he has tried without saying anything about the command. He should be honest and reply that he gets a file not found or what do you mean terminal? This might help the old pro realize your expertise level.
Last edited by Larry Webb; 01-02-2009 at 09:58 AM.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
Posts: 13,600
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Originally Posted by SilverBear2006
Hi, Jeremy,
and Happy New Year!
What I'd like to see --and I don't know if you can do it based on this Forum software or not-- is if you can enable tagging of threads "Unsolved" and "Solved" -- and maybe "News" for threads that aren't really requests for help with a problem.
As a mod over at MepisLovers.org, I can say with certainty that feature, when our Admin enabled it, started to really improve our help response time, as experienced members can now tell at a glance which threads don't need checking, and can just read through the ones marked "Unsolved".
John Boice,
AKA "SilverBear"
You can currently arbitrarily tag threads, so tagging something as a solution or solved is possible. I'm still up in the air about the "solved" issue for a variety of reasons. You may want to dig up the old threads on the topic and then start a new dedicated thread if it's an issue you'd like to see discussed in depth.
Distribution: Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu
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Originally Posted by tronkel
In this difficult financial crisis, people want to make the best use of the cash they do have. Linux has a role here.
Instead of splashing out on a full-spec laptop, a lot of punters are now going in for reduced-spec netbooks instead. Sales of these computers are booming - even in this crisis - and no wonder. They are small, fast, cheap, convenient and get the job done. It is a significant market sector now and is an ideal opportunity for Linux to increase its adoption rate.
So for 2009, I'd like to see more coverage of the netbook sector and similar - Asus eeepc. Intel Classmate and Acer - plus many others now as well.
We actually just recently renamed the Linux - Laptop forum to address this:
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Linux - Laptop and Netbook
Having a problem installing or configuring Linux on your laptop? Need help running Linux on your netbook? This forum is for you. This forum is for any topics relating to Linux and either traditional laptops or netbooks (such as the Asus EEE PC, Everex CloudBook or MSI Wind).
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing
Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute
content, let us know.
I have to agree
