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Old 04-08-2005, 12:06 PM   #1
Vizion
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15

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Rules, moderators & moderation


As a newbie on LinuxQuestions I recently made a posting to a forum on topic relating to a genre of pc (Tablets). I received not a single response to that posting. It seemed to me that noone viewing the forum either knew enough to follow up or if so was not inclined to. As the topic was not directly or indirectly referred in the topic guidance AND as the knowledge required to respond to the issues covered both hardware & software AND being a newbie, it seemed to me that I had made the mistake of posting to the wrong forum.

So I waited sometime. There was still no response so I made a posting to another forum. In that posting I mentioned that I had posted in a previous forum but received no response. This was not a case of posting simultaneously to multiple forums which is sensibly against the rules nor was the posting identical. As an aside if one was forbidden to raise in one forum a topic that had in the past been raised in another then I guess most topics would be banned!!!

I then got a response - from a moderator (So far the only one)- whose only apparent concern was that I had broken the rules. There was no constructive suggestion from that experienced hand about who might be able to help , no indication of reference sources, no concern that the expressed needs of a newbie were not generating a response, nor any expression of regret at the apparent lack of knowledge on the topic but only the admonishing slap of an administrators hand administered by the issuing of a standardized script of disapproval.

So whilst acknowledging that my posting could be interpreted solely as a "breach" of rules I feel there are wider issues in a forum which seems to present itself as a place for mutul suuport. I will mention three issues:

1. What is the most important role of a moderator? To see the rules are obeyed to the letter or to do everything possible to meet the needs of each individual participant? Is the human connection more or less important than a moderator's apparent need to insensitively regulate and admonish?
2. How can a member close a thread s/he raised in one forum if s/he feels it might fare better in another?
3. If a thread is not active (i.e. generating replies/discussion) what time should elapse before the originator can be considered be released from the threat of a heavy handed approach from a moderator.

Last edited by Vizion; 04-08-2005 at 12:13 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 12:35 PM   #2
XavierP
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Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Kent, England
Distribution: Lubuntu
Posts: 19,176
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Rep: Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430
You waited 3 hours between each post: 1906hrs, 2135hrs and 0018hrs. This means that you did not consider that people in other time zones were in bed or at school/their jobs. What this means is that the person with the answer may just be waiting to get back to their pc to see your question. Let's not forget that LQ is viewed by people all around the world. The normal, polite way to deal with not having any answers is to:

wait for 24 hours before bumping the post
answer your own post with further research or error messages

To answer your points:
1. Moderators are here to make sure that the boards work correctly: moving posts, closing posts, bringing threads back on opic. We are not here to provide answers to people who are feeling left out. In fact, the stock response you received was created because the Moderator team felt it was necessary as there were so many threads to close because of double posting. Thankfully, there aren't so many now.

2. They can't. If a member feels that a thread is in the wrong place they should report it to a moderator (using the link of the same name) and request amove.

3. There is no hard and fast rule. If we see it, or if someone reports it, it will be closed/moved or whatever. LQ has a reputation for being one of the least heavy handed boards and nothing in your experience has been any different from other members - who have simply read the response and followed it.

And this is now moved to Website Suggestions and Feedback - it's not a technical question.

Last edited by XavierP; 04-08-2005 at 12:37 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 01:38 PM   #3
trickykid
Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,133

Rep: Reputation: 199Reputation: 199
Also take into account that our rules state this as well:

The owners of LinuxQuestions.org have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

Some might not consider creating a new post to point to your existing post is double posting but we do for many reasons. Respect our simple to follow rules. I truly think you are making a bigger deal than this really is. Accept the fact that you cross posted and we kindly closed your thread and pointed other members to your existing thread. And have some more patience, the members here that answer questions do it in their own Free Time to help people like you.

We even have a new tool in place that automatically bumps your thread if it has 0 replies after 16 hours and then again after 24 hours. If you still don't have any responses after such time has passed by, feel free to reply to your thread to bring it back to the top of the list of new posts.

But have a little patience and don't take things on a personal level, its not like we're targeting you or anyone for that matter, this is a community site where people come to help others. Double posting and thinking your thread has any priority over any other members questions that are posted is considered rude and inconsiderate by many.

That's all I have to say about this subject.. I'd have to say if you still feel obligated to argue the simple closing, take it up with the admin of the site.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 01:55 PM   #4
Vizion
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
I could not find the thread-- but I see you guys have moved it

OK Thanks for your comments -- I see where you stand -- but as a newbie I think you guys are too focussed on rules and too little on the proclaimed purpose of LinuxQuestions as the place where people come for answers.

I do not feel you have really responded constructively to that mission. In fact one the administrators posts seems to specifically deny that goal as an objective of the role.

David

Last edited by Vizion; 04-08-2005 at 02:05 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 02:16 PM   #5
trickykid
Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vizion
I could not find the thread-- but I see you guys have moved it

OK Thanks for your comments -- I see where you stand -- but as a newbie I think you guys are too focussed on rules and too little on the proclaimed purpose of LinuxQuestions as the place where people come for answers.

I do not feel you have really responded constructively to that mission. In fact one the administrators posts seems to specifically deny that goal as an objective of the role.

David
Do you really think I have almost 20k posts of just closing threads.. I fail to see your point in just registering and only having a few posts. I don't mean to come off as rude but the moderators are here to help and also moderate. I find it quite useful that we have moderators from around the world to help out and we are as quick as we are, not only with cross posting but when things get out of hand, we usually don't let them go for days unnoticed, which is a good thing when someone is spamming our site, members are calling others names, etc.

The reply you got was like I stated before, a generic response we use so they are all the same when dealing with different rules that are broken. It also helps us so we don't have to type out a reply each time. We are busy people you know, we do this for free in our own spare time as well, we're not paid to moderator, we do it to help this site and the members that use it.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 02:49 PM   #6
Vizion
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
I hear you and it is not a question of your volunteerism not being appreciated. It is a question of how much priority moderators give to conflicting objectives. You do not help me by doing an automatic response. We are people who post not just inert posts to be dismissed by a knee jerk reaction.

I am a busy person as well - it took effort to carefully craft my posting. Did you take time to respect my time or to make real the idea that LinuxQuestions is a place for answers?

I think not.

If you only have time to act automatically then I would argue you need to respect yourself more and do less.
If you cannot respond constructively then I would argue it is best to do nothing. Thank you again
David

Last edited by Vizion; 04-08-2005 at 02:53 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 03:04 PM   #7
trickykid
Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,133

Rep: Reputation: 199Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally posted by Vizion
I hear youand it is not a question of your volunteerismnot being appreciated. It is a questin of how much priority is given to conflicting objectives. You do not help me by doing an automatic response. We are people who post not posts.

I am a busy person as well - it took effort to carefully craft my posting. Did you take time to respect my time or to make real the idea that LinuxQuestions is a placefor answers?

I think not.

If you only have time to act automatically then I would argue you need to respect yourself more and do less.
If you cannot respond constructively then I would argue it is best to do nothing. Thank you again
David
On the contrary, did you take the time to follow our rules? Even the ones you agreed to when registering that you have to mark with a "Yes" to proceed? Its not an automatic response per se, like mentioned, its a generic response we use to keep them all the same so they are all uniformed responses. I'd say 99.999999999999% of the members we've had that double posted and we marked their postings as double posts and closed, either just went on their way or apologized. I not once ever recall a member proclaiming that our replies when closing were taken out of respect. Your not paying for this service, I still fail to see why your making a big deal. I'm truly sorry if we hurt your feelings by closing your thread, your not the first and definitely not the last.

If you can imagine the amount of reported posts we get and the amount of questions asked daily, we can't take the time to hold your hand every single time to make sure you are aware that you broke a rule and here are the steps to not break them in the future.

Our rules are easy to follow and at least there is some type of reply when we close them, its informational to you and all other members. Apparently members browse and register to our site daily and can't read the rules they agree to so we make it clear at every single closing. I know for a fact that most forums and other sites would just close and ignore every reply you've sent, as you can see, we are clearly taking the time to address the issues you think your having in explaining how we do things on this site. If you can't appreciate that or our rules without complaining over a simple closing cause you got caught breaking one of our rules, then you by all means are not forced to use our site at all.

Regards.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 03:39 PM   #8
trickykid
Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,133

Rep: Reputation: 199Reputation: 199
Simply and directly put, do you really think a process we've been doing for almost 5 years now because you as the only member to ever disagree with it is going to get changed? I would think after 5 years of the same ongoing replies and processes in which we handle such things on a site privatly owned and these rules put in place by the Site Admin and Owner is working quite well with the one complaint we've had so far!

Something to think about and no matter how much you disagree with it, its Jeremy's site, his rules and his response he asked us to put in place when closing threads, its not going to change anytime soon.

And to be truthful, when I close a thread that was double posted, I do usually read the thread. Most of our double posts are caught by other members who report them for closing. At times whichever moderator gets notified first will take the minute or two out of his time before they get too many replies, having the same discussion in two different places on the same forum can cause confusion, which is a reason we close these threads as well. And just cause we close a thread and don't answer the question doesn't mean we don't care as we do care in many other fashions and reasons, is also that you have to think just cause we're moderators doesn't mean we have the answer to every single question posted.

So before you start accusing a moderator doing his duties on a very large site with massive amounts of traffic to keep things in order, you should reconsider that you didn't take the time to respect our site or the other members who follow these simple rules. If you were totally unsure, you should have asked before posting.

Regards.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 07:22 PM   #9
Vizion
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
I wish you guys were as open to getting my point as I am to understanding yours. You see the rules and I see the results (no responses).

A little graciousness and empathy would go a long way.

Could you please remove the thread from Hardware where it is clearly ineffective and place it in general where I hope it might receive a better audience.

Thanks

David
 
Old 04-08-2005, 07:59 PM   #10
trickykid
Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,133

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Quote:
Originally posted by Vizion
I wish you guys were as open to getting my point as I am to understanding yours. You see the rules and I see the results (no responses).

A little graciousness and empathy would go a long way.

Could you please remove the thread from Hardware where it is clearly ineffective and place it in general where I hope it might receive a better audience.

Thanks

David
There you go, why didn't you just ask if that's all you wanted. Unfortunately I am not a moderator of the Hardware forum so if you report your post to be moved, a moderator will most likely move it accordingly.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 08:34 PM   #11
trickykid
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Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,133

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Okay so I browsed your posts and found that you also posted here: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...60#post1580560

After this whole ordeal of telling you not to double post, you go and hijack someone else's thread to try and point others to your original thread. DON'T DO THIS! What do you think we've been trying to tell you for the past 5 or 6 posts you've made?

This is considered rude and inconsiderate by replying to another members thread to only state your having a problem and for others to go check our your question in another forum and is worse than double posting as now your involving members and their own threads/questions that have nothing to do with yours.

Here's the honest truth, you come off making yourself believe that a moderator or any other member is under obligation to provide you with an answer. You are wrong. We try our best to help people but not every question may have an answer. Members are not obligated to answer any questions. You did not pay for a service which has to be delivered to you. So I fail to see your point on anything you might try to bring up to argue your closing of your thread.

Did you ever think to yourself that not everyone owns a tablet pc? I don't know of one person that owns one myself, so your asking a very rare question. At times you might get a 1 minute response time for an answer.. or it could be 2 years.. that's how forum work and free one's answered by the community work.

If you dare to create one more post that links or mentions your existing thread in Hardware or in General after its been moved, I will be sure to revoke your privileges to this site and you'll have to take it up with the Admin and Site Owner to get reinstated. This is your final and last warning.

Regards.

PS. I know 6 year olds with better manners and actually show respect to rules that were in place before they were even around. Get my point!
 
Old 04-08-2005, 09:09 PM   #12
vharishankar
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,142
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 121Reputation: 121
This is the fourth of fifth time this week that I see a newcomer to LQ demand their rights without showing respect to the owners/moderators and the other regular members.

Bluntly put, nobody cares about your problems. Yes. That's right. Nobody. You are simple one among 150,000+ members and we are not here to serve you. Get that into your head, Vizion. You are not privileged. Every member who double-posts receives the same treatment at the moderator's hands.

If anybody wishes to seek answers to their questions they would be better served by
  • Posting a clear description of their problem.
  • Posting once and waiting for a sufficiently long period of time before reviving the thread.
  • Showing some respect to others who spend their time here without recompense.
  • Understanding that some questions may take longer to answer than others because some questions might just be difficult to answer and those with the answers might not be online at the time.

Quote:
A little graciousness and empathy would go a long way.
I could say the same to you, sir, with all due respect.

Last edited by vharishankar; 04-08-2005 at 09:11 PM.
 
Old 04-08-2005, 09:11 PM   #13
Vizion
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 15

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 0
My you are mighty touchy.

I really think you need to spend more time relacxing and less time pontificating.

Come on there are more important things in the world than pedanticism.

David
 
Old 04-08-2005, 09:15 PM   #14
vharishankar
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,142
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 121Reputation: 121
Quote:
My you are mighty touchy.
Respect works both ways. That's the point I wished to make. No, I am not touchy, sorry. I've seen a lot more people with your attitude and I'm used to it.

Quote:
I really think you need to spend more time relacxing and less time pontificating.
Merely making you familiar with how to earn respect of the other members.

Quote:
Come on there are more important things in the world than pedanticism.
I really cannot comment on that off-context message.
 
Old 04-09-2005, 09:34 AM   #15
XavierP
Moderator
 
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Kent, England
Distribution: Lubuntu
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Rep: Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430Reputation: 430
Quote:
From the Rules
Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below.
<snip>
The owners of LinuxQuestions.org have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
<snip>
Do not post the same discussion in more than one forum. Duplicate discussions can be frustrating for other members. Try and pick the most relevant forum for your post. If you are unsure put it in Linux - General.
<snip>
While almost every question does get an answer, we cannot guarantee a response. Please do not bump your post until 24 hours has past.
<snip>
By becoming a member you agreed to adhere to these guidelines. These guidelines are subject to change and a current version is always available in the forums. If you come across any violations to these guidelines or have any problems navigating the site, do not hesitate to let us know via email or the forums.
Quote:
From the FAQ page
What Are Moderators?

Moderators oversee specific forums. They generally have the ability to edit and delete posts, move threads, and perform other manipulations. Becoming a moderator for a specific forum is usually rewarded to users who are particularly helpful and knowledgable in the subject of the forum they are moderating.
Really the first part is the most relevant. When you signed up you agreed to the Rules. This wasn't an implied agreement, you had to physically click a button to say you agreed to the Rules. All your other arguments are specious.

Your thread was closed because it was a duplicate of another thread you posted. A message was put in to say why it was closed and I linked to the original thread out of courtesy.

I fail to understand why you are pursuing this.

Last edited by XavierP; 04-09-2005 at 09:36 AM.
 
  


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