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Old 07-24-2009, 09:41 AM   #16
Simon Bridge
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Sub-forum off general?

Why not alert a the cygwin mailing list to this discussion - perhaps a cygwin dev will want to support a forum?

But I think that problems with unix-stuff implimented on windows in some method belongs in the forum for the unix stuff. Problems with running the "some method" on windows really belongs in a windows forum or general.

I strongly doubt that anyone with a pressing need for a cygwin answer will be discouraged by the lack of a forum - just observe how many innapropriately placed posts there are. A pressing need will have it's outlet - probably in newbie or whatever first falls under the mouse.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 10:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
Why not alert a the cygwin mailing list to this discussion
Excellent suggestion. Undoubtedly the fastest way to get an authoritative answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
Sub-forum off general?
In terms of current taxonomy that's what I was thinking too but given the image and OT content of the General forum this somehow doesn't seem to do Cygwin right, personally speaking.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 10:26 AM   #18
Simon Bridge
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Actually - general is where windows questions belong.
Windows questions will be off topic.

Questions about running something in cygwin would belong in the forum appropriate for that thing just as if it was on linux. User just needs to identify that this is cygwin and windows version, just like they'd have to say if it was a VM or which linux version.

The issue is that we suspect that many users of cygwin will be unwilling to post questions to a non-cygwin forum. Particularly if they are concerned that missposting will be poorly received.

But we only have suspicions at this stage. We need a reality check.

I have another suggestion - do a grass-roots test:
Start a thread called: "cygwin questions here" or similarly trolling. See how many posters we get, and what sort of questions they ask.

Start a linux answer called "cygwin howtos and tips".

This way, those users we imagine looking for a cygwin home forum will find one.

Excuse me but I am skeptical about newcomers using the search functions. I suspect that cygwin users are likely to be experienced with gnu/linux to begin with and, nevertheless, tend to do things they already know about or which are simple with it. Thus - few cygwin-specific questions.

Still - lets test our hypotheses.
We now hove three simple tests, easily implimented by the cygwin-forum advocates.
I have notified developers of threads in forums here to good effect. They are normally interested in user discussions of their work. So go for it.

Last edited by Simon Bridge; 07-24-2009 at 10:29 AM.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 01:01 PM   #19
jeremy
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Starting a cygwin-specific thread to gauge interest is probably the best place to start. From there, if someone from the cygwin team is willing to participate we could explore the dedicated forum option. While cygwin isn't Linux distro, it is a "distribution" of sorts, so a subforum off Distributions probably makes the most sense.

--jeremy
 
Old 07-24-2009, 07:18 PM   #20
KenJackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
I suspect that cygwin users are likely to be experienced with gnu/linux to begin with and, nevertheless, tend to do things they already know about or which are simple with it. Thus - few cygwin-specific questions.
Some Cygwin users, no doubt, fit the category you describe. But I think that may be the minority party, and is certainly the lesser important group.

I used to be Microsoft's number one fan. But along about '98 or '99, I started getting disgusted with Windows and I had always been curious about the Unix experience that I felt I had been deprived of in college. So I installed Cygwin both at work and at home and started slowly learning to use bash and friends in an environment where I could easily back out and use the Windows tools I was more familiar with.

My confidence grew and eventually (for a while) I was using almost 100% Mandriva Linux both at work and at home.

I haven't read anything about RedHat's motives, but I'm fairly certain that they are putting a huge effort into Cygwin. I can't think of any other reason than to make a good tool to wean Windows users away. It worked for me and I've read or heard of others with similar stories.

You think there would be few cygwin-specific questions? When something doesn't work the way you expect, it's hard to tell if it's the a problem with the Linux tool, or a problem running it on a Windows platform. If you post it in a Linux forum, people assume the problem must be Windows. If you post in a Windows forum, people have no clue what your asking about.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 10:05 PM   #21
Simon Bridge
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Fine: prove me wrong.

Start a thread called "Cygwin Questions Here"
Open with an explanation of what the thread is for - then add an example question. Something which you have experienced as a common and vexing issue (then people searching for it's solution will be drawn to the thread). In the next post, provide an answer... tell the above story, and offer to help anyone else who posts there.

Write to a cygwin mailing list to draw attention of a dev to this thread.
http://www.cygwin.com/

Don't waste time arguing with me, I'm nobody, and god root has spoken.

We are both arguing ad hominim right now, after all.

Last edited by Simon Bridge; 07-24-2009 at 10:07 PM.
 
Old 07-24-2009, 11:45 PM   #22
KenJackson
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Arguing ad hominem? It seemed like a friendly thread until now.
 
Old 07-25-2009, 02:22 AM   #23
Simon Bridge
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Argument: A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.

It doesn't have to be unfreindly

So it must be the "ad hominim" ... better check.

Hmmm... argument by attacking the person - darn: wrong one.

I mean - generalising from personal experience... what is true of our personal experience is not always generally true. Secundum quid?

Shame - if I'd got it right first time it would have looked quite good :s

So... you gonna prove me wrong?
 
Old 07-25-2009, 01:20 PM   #24
KenJackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
So... you gonna prove me wrong?
I don't want proof or debate of argument. I just want a forum where I can post questions and hopefully answer a few.

Have you seen how many Linux forums there are? Actually, this question fascinates me, totally independent of the issue at hand. Here are some Google searches:
"Powered by Nabble" -- 879,000 hits
"Powered by SMF" -- 37,400,000 hits
"Powered by phpBB" -- 69,500,000 hits
"Powered by vBulletin" -- 148,000,000 hits

I don't know how many of those hits are redundant, but there are clearly lots and lots of forums on many, many topics. And the most common topics are computer related, including many, many about Linux.

So why oh why isn't there a forum, or at least a sub-forum, for Cygwin users?

It puzzles me. There must surely be a lot of Cygwin users, because there is and has been a lot of effort being poured into it. The mailing list is so active that I can't stand to stay on it for more than a week or so before the volume drives me crazy. And yet, as far as I have found, there is nothing more than an occasional thread in all the forums I have searched.
 
Old 07-25-2009, 01:45 PM   #25
unSpawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
I just want a forum
Then please consider the approach Jeremy suggested. I know an administrator at another forum has offered to create a Cygwin forum for you, provided you would (sic) "promote it with the variour Cygwin mailing lists and new groups". If you are not so inclined and you (like you did then) are "weighing bother/reward ratio" do let us know.
 
Old 07-26-2009, 02:27 AM   #26
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
I don't want proof or debate of argument. I just want a forum where I can post questions and hopefully answer a few.
That's a no?

Reread #19. Root has spelled out the path to get a cygwin forum. Thats as much as any of us get. It is now up to the people who care about having a forum here to act on this opportunity.
 
Old 07-26-2009, 05:24 AM   #27
archtoad6
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<aside>
How I wish I could individually collapse posts irrelevant to my train of thought!
</aside>


Ken,

Start the suggested thread & post a link to it here, I'll subscribe.
 
Old 07-27-2009, 02:41 AM   #28
Simon Bridge
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I too was interested in Ken's exploration and did a ssimilar search for cygwin:

Cygwin from:

nabble: 7
smf: 329,000
phpBB: 1,480,000
vBullitin: 10,700

This is a particularly interesting search because Ken has been asking this question (cygwin forum) all over the place, in much the same language. eg:
http://www.bluehostforum.com/showthread.php?t=13851

Getting similar responses too - either directing to existing information sources or offering to provide a forum if only Ken, or somebody, will do something.

The search also throws up cygwin forums like:
http://www.nabble.com/Cygwin-f12165.html
 
Old 07-27-2009, 05:22 AM   #29
KenJackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
This is a particularly interesting search because Ken has been asking this question (cygwin forum) all over the place, in much the same language. ...

Getting similar responses too - either directing to existing information sources or offering to provide a forum if only Ken, or somebody, will do something.
Good! I appreciate the recognition that I'm searching high and low. And, yes, the typical response is some polite version of do it yourself and shut up.

I suppose I'm still at it because I just can't believe there isn't an existing forum I've missed or at least enough interest to get one started--other than some prove me wrong strawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
So why oh why isn't there a forum, or at least a sub-forum, for Cygwin users?

It puzzles me. ... The mailing list is so active that I can't stand to stay on it for more than a week or so before the volume drives me crazy. And yet, as far as I have found, there is nothing more than an occasional thread in all the forums I have searched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
The search also throws up cygwin forums like:
http://www.nabble.com/Cygwin-f12165.html
Thank you--this is at least something. I think I found this before and misunderstood it. It's kind of an oddball thing in that it's not a real forum, but a gateway to the mailing list that I mentioned above.

When you click on one of the child forums, you can apparently send an email to the list without joining it. Though I'm not sure I can sign up for email responses to just that post. That's an excellent feature about forums like LinuxQuestions.
 
Old 07-27-2009, 07:15 AM   #30
Simon Bridge
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Well, I am assuming that anyone so passionate is at least signed up to the mailing list?
That would be an appropriate place to direct attention here.

However, if you are wondering about the dearth of dedicated forums, then perhaps you should look to your own reluctance to do anything beyond encourage someone else to start one? Probably other similarly passionate cygwin users feel the same way? Have you asked about this on the mailing list?

"Prove me wrong" is not a straw man.
Quote:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
1. I don't believe I have misrepresented your position: that there is sufficient interest in a dedicated cygwin forum to include one in LQ.
2. I have not refuted the my representation of your position - rather, I have invited you to refute mine.
3. I have not claimed that I have refuted your position - rather, I have pointed out that either of our positions may be suspect and suggested a way forward.

Even if that is a straw man - you are still provided will a clear way to get what you want, whether you disprove me or not.

Why not start a thread?
Why not try attract a cygwin dev?

Do you need help?
Shall I do this for you?

The suggested thread - well attended - would demonstrate the grass-roots support you claim exists.
If a dev were to write that they'd support a forum, that would be a slam-dunk.
The same applies to any request for a special forum. Why should yours be any different?

I'm sorry, but the reluctance on the part of advocates to take even such elementary steps suggests that it cannot be all that important to them. How can we come to any other conclusion?
 
  


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